Lojban In General

On Tuesday 01 April 2008 10:05, mublin wrote:
> .i ui ki'e .i le selgu'a na mulno .iseki'ubo mi nelcu'a loza'i denpa
> fo lozu'o jmina fi la uikis
>
> Thank you. I'm still working on the Lojban etymology, so I'd like to
> wait a bit before adding anything to the wiki.
>
> In the meantime, the reconstructed Chinese, English, and Spanish
> source words are available at the following address:
>
> https://www.dealloc.org/~mublin/
>
> Of course, if anybody would like to help out let me know.

Great work!

Several Spanish words are listed with unrelated meanings: "este" (east)
and "este" (this) are different words, as are "sed" (thirst) and "sed" (be).
For {sumti}, "subject of a sentence" is more likely to be the relevant
meaning than the verb form. "corto", at {tordu}, does not have its homonym
(form of "cortar").

¿No nada nada? —No, no traje traje.
El vino vino, pero el vino no vino vino. El vino vino vinagre.

Pierre

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On 4/1/08, Pierre Abbat <phma@phma.optus.nu> wrote:

>
> ¿No nada nada? —No, no traje traje.
> El vino vino, pero el vino no vino vino. El vino vino vinagre.

Me pongo el pongo y me saco el saco.

mu'o mi'e xorxes

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On Tuesday 01 April 2008 17:42, Jorge Llambías wrote:
> I think some of the "Spanish" source words were actually Portuguese.

Any word in which "o" changed to "ue" in Spanish, this was undone, so that
they would make more sense to speakers of other Romance languages. This often
coincides with the Portuguese word, but not always.

> sluni onion por
> FIXIT missing
>
> Very mysterious.

Puerro, which is leek, not onion. Onion is cebolla.

> spoja explode eksplo
> explotar "to exploit"
> FIXIT correct transcription "eksplot"
>
> Although "to exploit" is one of its meanings, it does also mean "to
> explode".

I've been wondering about that. I've heard the word used both ways, and
wondered why they are conflated.

Pierre

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On Tue, Apr 1, 2008 at 10:45 PM, Pierre Abbat <phma@phma.optus.nu> wrote:

> On Tuesday 01 April 2008 17:42, Jorge Llambías wrote:
>
> > sluni onion por
> > FIXIT missing
> >
> > Very mysterious.
>
> Puerro, which is leek, not onion. Onion is cebolla.

Yes, it came to me this morning when I woke up. I was going
to post about it but you beat me to it.

> > spoja explode eksplo
> > explotar "to exploit"
> > FIXIT correct transcription "eksplot"
> >
> > Although "to exploit" is one of its meanings, it does also mean "to
> > explode".
>
> I've been wondering about that. I've heard the word used both ways, and
> wondered why they are conflated.

"Explotar" in the sense "to exploit" is from the French "exploiter".
In the sense "to explode" it is more recent, a back-formation from
"explosión", probably influenced by the existence of the other.

mu'o mi'e xorxes

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Many thanks for the feedback and help with the Spanish source words!
Some comments follow below. The Spanish etymology 1 has been
updated.

1 https://www.dealloc.org/~mublin

On Tue, Apr 01, 2008 at 02:37:14PM -0400, Pierre Abbat wrote:
> Several Spanish words are listed with unrelated meanings: "este"
> (east) and "este" (this) are different words, as are "sed" (thirst)
> and "sed" (be). For {sumti}, "subject of a sentence" is more likely
> to be the relevant meaning than the verb form. "corto", at {tordu},
> does not have its homonym (form of "cortar").

On Tue, Apr 01, 2008 at 06:42:40PM -0300, Jorge Llambías wrote:
> >explotar "to exploit"
>
> Although "to exploit" is one of its meanings, it does also mean "to
> explode".

Sorry about this. Many English translations are beside the point or
missing because (after the actual reconstruction was finished) they
were looked up on en.wiktionary.org by a script and added without any
editing. I do not know a good public domain dictionary, nor am I able
to write the 1300 odd translations myself.

For now, I have removed the many irrelevant inflected verb forms, for
example the translation of Spanish ``era (for English ``era) as
``first-person singular imperfect indicative form of ser''.

On Tue, Apr 01, 2008 at 06:42:40PM -0300, Jorge Llambías wrote:
> drudi roof texod
> tejado
> FIXIT correct transcription "tex"
>
> Shouldn't that be "texad"?

Hm... yes.

I assumed ``tejado (roof)'' was a noun derived from the past
participle of ``tejar (to tile)''. Apparently it is in fact derived
from ``teja (tile) with derivational suffix ``-ado 1.

1 http://es.wiktionary.org/wiki/tejado

In about half of the source words ending in ``-ado'', the ending was
removed before gismu generation, including mostly adjectives derived
from past participles, but also some nouns:

jalge result resultado
smuni signifik significado

In the other half, only the suffix ``-o'' was removed. Many of these
words are nouns and not derived from a Spanish past participle (though
often a Latin one), e.g.:

sonci soldad soldado
kurfa kuadrad cuadrado
jecta estad estado

> ganti testicle test
> test-
> FIXIT dubious
>
> "testa" is "head", but it doesn't make sense to have it as a option
> for "testículo".

Then I suppose test and testikul are just different Lojbanisations
of ``testículo, and that removing the ending ``-ículo was
considered optional in the gismu generation process. Changed to:

ganti test testículo
ganti testikul testículo

> rijno silver arxentos
> argento "silver"
> FIXIT correct transcription "arxent"
>
> I think some of the "Spanish" source words were actually Portuguese.
> Perhaps this is one of them, although that woldn't be the correct
> Portuguese prounciation of "argentoso". A Portuguese word with Spanish
> prounciation?

Hm... Could the adjective ``argentoso (silvery; containing silver)''
be an existent though hardly used word in both Portuguese and Spanish?
It is listed in Gran Enciclopedia Salvat 1 and on another site 2.

1 http://www.ebrisa.com/portalc/articulo-S/417800
2 http://www.laspalabras.net/suffixes/palabras_acabo_con_oso.php

> vlipa powerful poder
> poder "power, reign; authorization; to be able, can"
> FIXIT correct transcription "pod"
>
> Probably "poderoso" (powerful).

I think ``poderoso would have been Lojbanised as ``poderos. Almost
all source words ending in ``-oso were shortened to ``-os, e.g.:

glare kaluros caluroso
kucli kurios curioso
kukte gustos gustoso

There are two (probably unintentional) exceptions to this:

lazni peres perezoso
masno despasi despacioso

Thanks again.

--
mu'o mi'e mublin.

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On Tuesday 01 April 2008 14:44, Jorge Llambías wrote:

> On 4/1/08, Pierre Abbat <phma@phma.optus.nu> wrote:

> > ¿No nada nada? —No, no traje traje.
> > El vino vino, pero el vino no vino vino. El vino vino vinagre.
>
> Me pongo el pongo y me saco el saco.

¿El pongo ku ki'a? The only noun "pongo" I know is the genus of the orangutan.

zasni: Besides "passenger", "pasajero" also means "passing, fleeting".

tabra: Given the context, "metales" must mean "brasses".

sevzi: "sí" is a pair of homonyms. The one that means "yes" is irrelevant; the
other one is the reflexive pronoun, which also has the clitic form "se".

ragve: should "través" be "a través"?

suelo: "soler" is irrelevant.

Pierre

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On Thu, Apr 03, 2008 at 11:42:39PM -0400, Pierre Abbat wrote:
> zasni: Besides "passenger", "pasajero" also means "passing, fleeting".
>
> tabra: Given the context, "metales" must mean "brasses".
>
> sevzi: "sí" is a pair of homonyms. The one that means "yes" is irrelevant; the
> other one is the reflexive pronoun, which also has the clitic form "se".
>
> ragve: should "través" be "a través"?
>
> suelo: "soler" is irrelevant.

Thanks, updated.

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On 4/4/08, Pierre Abbat <phma@phma.optus.nu> wrote:

> On Tuesday 01 April 2008 14:44, Jorge Llambías wrote:
> >
> > Me pongo el pongo y me saco el saco.
>
> ¿El pongo ku ki'a? The only noun "pongo" I know is the genus of the orangutan.

py klesi lo mapku .i ku'i mi na snada lo nu tolcri le valsi lo vlacku
.i la'a mutce diklo valsi .i lo xajmi tigni no'u la'o sy José Marrone sy
cu ta'e cusku le jufra .i ko viska lo kacmypixra be jymy bu'u la'o
uitki <http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jos%C3%A9_Marrone> uitki
.i jymy dasni lo pongo .i ju'o cu'i jymy finti le valsi

mu'o mi'e xorxes

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