Lojban In General

Posted by lagejyspa on Thu 03 of Dec, 2009 12:05 GMT posts: 350

On Fri, Aug 21, 2009 at 7:07 PM, H. Felton<fagricipni@gmail.com> wrote:
> In the draft Reference Grammar, the modal si'u is said to derived from
> sidju. sidju is defined in gismu.txt as meaning "x1 helps/assists/aids
> object/person x2 do/achieve/maintain event/activity x3", yet in the
> Reference Grammar (Chapter 9, Section 17) the table says that "se
> si'u" approximately means "assisting in"; it would seem to me that "te
> si'u" would be closer in meaning to that: "se si'u" would seem to be
> closer to "assisting person".  Am I missing some point, or is the
> Reference Grammar flawed on this point?
>
You're not missing anything. "se si'u" should be "assisting", not
"assisting in"

--gejyspa

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On Mon, Aug 24, 2009 at 11:18 AM, Michael
Turniansky<mturniansky@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Fri, Aug 21, 2009 at 7:07 PM, H. Felton<fagricipni@gmail.com> wrote:
>> In the draft Reference Grammar, the modal si'u is said to derived from
>> sidju. sidju is defined in gismu.txt as meaning "x1 helps/assists/aids
>> object/person x2 do/achieve/maintain event/activity x3", yet in the
>> Reference Grammar (Chapter 9, Section 17) the table says that "se
>> si'u" approximately means "assisting in"; it would seem to me that "te
>> si'u" would be closer in meaning to that: "se si'u" would seem to be
>> closer to "assisting person".  Am I missing some point, or is the
>> Reference Grammar flawed on this point?
>>
>  You're not missing anything.  "se si'u" should be "assisting", not
> "assisting in"
>
>                    --gejyspa

I just realized my English "translation" is ambiguous as well: I meant
"assisting" as a
verb with "person" (the following sumti fills that place) as object.
I realize that my
English "translation" could be interpreted as a participial adjective
("assisting")
followed by its modified noun ("person") — that is most decidedly _not_ the
interpretation I had in mind. Although, I may be making a mistake in
assuming that
x2 has to have a motivation.

The reason that this has come up at all is that I have used Python to
process the
gismu list with the intention of writing a program to help me learn
the gismu. Since
63 out of the 65 modals are associated with gismu, I used the table in
Reference
Grammar to manually add the associated modal to the data already
associated with
a particular gismu; and that's when I noticed the issue I just brought up.

Incidentally, the big areas that I will use the program to help me
with are: learning
the meanings of the gismu (both Lojban to English and English to
Lojban), learning
the rafsi associated with the gismu (gismu to rafsi) and in reverse the valsi
associated with a particular rafsi (rafsi to valsi) for being able to
associate a rafsi
back with the associated valsi, I will inculde the rafsi cmavo, and,
of course, learning
the modals associated with a gismu (both gismu to modal and modal to gismu).
There are a few other sets of vocabulary that I might also write a program for
learning: almost certainly, the 2 vowel attitudinals; but there may be
others. When
I have a working program, I would very much like to share it with the
rest of the
Lojban community; even if someone doesn't like the approach that I
took to learning
the gismu — it is likely the best approach for me will not be ideal
for most people, the
source code will be available. Also the data files would easily be
useful for other
Lojban programs.

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