malranxi

Lojban In General

malranxi

Posted by dbrock on Mon 07 of Dec, 2009 08:55 GMT posts: 47

Moving discussion to lojban-list.

On Wed, Dec 2, 2009 at 6:30 PM, A. PIEKARSKI <totus@rogers.com> wrote:
>
> Comments, please.
>
> malranxi r1=m2 is sarcastic as used/stated by m3
>
> from
>
> mabla: m1 is a derogative connotation/sense of m2 used by m3
> ranxi: r1 is ironic(al)/contrary to expectation r2 in state/property/aspect r3.
>
> gloss:
> sarcastic
> caustic sounding
>
> This assumes that r1 is an abstraction, not a person.
> Try as I may, I can't see any use for r1 or r2.

I think {ranxi} is about, e.g., a diabetic being run over by a truck
of insulin --- not so much about saying the opposite of what you mean.
Being ironic in that sense is not very ironic in the sense relevant
to {ranxi}, in my opinion, even though saying the opposite of what you
mean is usually a little unexpected.

For "being ironic" in the sense of "saying the literal opposite of
what you mean", I instead suggest {dutsku}:

In English: dutsku: x1=c1 says x2=c2=d1 to x3=c3 through medium
x4=c4, but means the opposite, namely x5=d2 (text)

In Lojban: lo du'u ko'a ko'e ko'i ko'o ko'u dutsku cu du'u ko'a
cusku ko'e ko'i ko'o gi'e ku'i jinvi lo smuni be ko'e na .e ko'u noi
dukti ko'e

dutsku1: ironic person
dutsku2: ironic utterance
dutsku3: audience of irony
dutsku4: medium of ironic utterance
dutsku5: subtext of ironic utterance

(I'm not sure what goes in dukti3 here --- maybe {lo ka jetnu} or {lo
ka smuni} or something ---, but in any case it doesn't have to be in
the place structure of {dutsku} itself.)

Now, _sarcasm_ is primarily a kind of {ckasu} ---

ckasu: x1 ridicules/mocks/scoffs at x2 about x3 (property/event)
by doing activity x4 (event)

But to specifically indicate "mocking someone by saying the literal
opposite of what you mean", I suggest {dutsku ckasu} or {ckasu
dutsku}, depending on what place strucure you need.

I don't think we need a separate brivla for sarcasm. It's a rather
ill-defined concept anyway; trying to nail down the exact meaning of
"sarcasm" in a lujvo seems a little futile.

--
Daniel Brockman
daniel@brockman.se

To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list-request@lojban.org
with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if
you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help.

Reads: 10882

Link

Posted by =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jorge_Llamb=EDas?= on Mon 07 of Dec, 2009 08:56 GMT

On Wed, Dec 2, 2009 at 4:15 PM, Daniel Brockman <daniel@brockman.se> wrote:
>
>> ranxi: r1 is ironic(al)/contrary to expectation r2 in state/property/aspect r3.
>
> I think {ranxi} is about, e.g., a diabetic being run over by a truck
> of insulin --- not so much about saying the opposite of what you mean.

So:
r1: a diabetic is run over by a truck of insulin
r2: insulin is beneficial to diabetics
r3: tragic

Would that be right? Other kinds of x3 in different situations might
be "funny" or "poetic justice".
No idea what a state in x3 would mean though.

> For "being ironic" in the sense of "saying the literal opposite of
> what you mean", I instead suggest {dutsku}:

That might work, but I'm not sure saying the opposite of what you mean
is enough for being ironic. "dutsku" sounds like being contrarian
rather than being ironic. It may be part of it, but it doesn't seem to
be the central part. The central part has to be that the act of saying
it is ironic in the sense of ranxi. I would keep "ranxi" in the lujvo
rather than the weaker "dukti", so I suggest "raxsku"
"x1 says x2 to x3 via medium x4, which is ironic/contrary to
expectation (that x1 would say what they really mean, the usual
expectation when someone says something)

I'm not sure what the x3 aspect of ranxi would be in this case.

> Now, _sarcasm_ is primarily a kind of {ckasu} ---
>
> Â Â ckasu: x1 ridicules/mocks/scoffs at x2 about x3 (property/event)
> by doing activity x4 (event)
>
> --- which by itself is probably sufficient in many cases.
>
> But to specifically indicate "mocking someone by saying the literal
> opposite of what you mean", I suggest {dutsku ckasu} or {ckasu
> dutsku}, depending on what place strucure you need.

Or "raxyckasu", "ckasu fo lo ranxi", x1 ridicules/mocks/scoffs at x2
about x3 by doing something ironic, contrary to expectation.

> I don't think we need a separate brivla for sarcasm. Â It's a rather
> ill-defined concept anyway; trying to nail down the exact meaning of
> "sarcasm" in a lujvo seems a little futile.

I guess we need the context in which the word is used too. One common
use is to say "I was just being sarcastic", as a kind of apology for
saying something that wasn't well received. In that situation I might
go with "mi pu xalbo", or "mi pu ranxi xalbo".

mu'o mi'e xorxes

Link

Posted by lagejyspa on Mon 07 of Dec, 2009 08:58 GMT posts: 350

2009/12/2 Jorge LlambÃas <jjllambias@gmail.com>:
> On Wed, Dec 2, 2009 at 4:15 PM, Daniel Brockman <daniel@brockman.se> wrote:
>>
>>> ranxi: r1 is ironic(al)/contrary to expectation r2 in state/property/aspect r3.
>>
>> I think {ranxi} is about, e.g., a diabetic being run over by a truck
>> of insulin --- not so much about saying the opposite of what you mean.
>
> So:
> r1: a diabetic is run over by a truck of insulin
> r2: insulin is beneficial to diabetics
> r3: tragic
>
> Would that be right? Other kinds of x3 in different situations might
> be "funny" or "poetic justice".
> No idea what a state in x3 would mean though.

That's not the way I read it, no. x3 is a state/aspect/property of
x1 that contrary to expectation x2. "tragedy" would be a property of
x1 yes, but it's not what's contrary about it. I'd say ranxi is more
like:
lo flira be do xanri lo si'o(/du'u?) ro jbopre cu melbi kei lo za'i tolmle
(no offense, Xorxes. I've never seen you, actually)
--gejyspa

Link

Posted by totus on Mon 07 of Dec, 2009 08:58 GMT posts: 65

> so I suggest "raxsku"
> "x1 says x2 to x3 via medium x4, which is ironic/contrary to
> expectation (that x1 would say what they really mean, the usual
> expectation when someone says something)
>
> I'm not sure what the x3 aspect of ranxi would be in this case.
>
Is this how you would write it?
Â
{c1 cusku c2 c3 c4 .ijebo lonu go'i cu ranxi lonu so'eda tersmu le go'e}
{c1 raxsku c2 c3 c4}
Â
totus

Link

Posted by =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jorge_Llamb=EDas?= on Mon 07 of Dec, 2009 08:58 GMT

On Fri, Dec 4, 2009 at 11:40 AM, A. PIEKARSKI <totus@rogers.com> wrote:
>
>> so I suggest "raxsku"
>> "x1 says x2 to x3 via medium x4, which is ironic/contrary to
>> expectation (that x1 would say what they really mean, the usual
>> expectation when someone says something)
>>
>> I'm not sure what the x3 aspect of ranxi would be in this case.
>>
> Is this how you would write it?
>
> {c1 cusku c2 c3 c4 .ijebo lonu go'i cu ranxi lonu so'eda tersmu le go'e}
> {c1 raxsku c2 c3 c4}

What's "le go'e"?

I would say:

ko'a cusku ko'e ko'i ko'o .ije la'e di'u ranxi lo nu na cusku lo to'e
se smuni be lo se jinvi

As for the x3 of "ranxi", I now think that what characterizes this
type of irony has to be something like "intentional", or "intentional
for effect", as opposed to ironic situations that just happen to be
ironic unintentionally.

mu'o mi'e xorxes

Link

Posted by totus on Mon 07 of Dec, 2009 08:58 GMT posts: 65

~~--- Original Message~~ --
> From: Jorge LlambÃas <jjllambias@gmail.com>
> To: lojban-list@lojban.org
> Sent: Fri, December 4, 2009 10:09:57 AM
> Subject: lojban Re: jbovlaste malranxi
>
> On Fri, Dec 4, 2009 at 11:40 AM, A. PIEKARSKI wrote:
> >
> >> so I suggest "raxsku"
> >> "x1 says x2 to x3 via medium x4, which is ironic/contrary to
> >> expectation (that x1 would say what they really mean, the usual
> >> expectation when someone says something)
> >>
> >> I'm not sure what the x3 aspect of ranxi would be in this case.
> >>
> > Is this how you would write it?
> >
> > {c1 cusku c2 c3 c4 .ijebo lonu go'i cu ranxi lonu so'eda tersmu le go'e}
> > {c1 raxsku c2 c3 c4}
>
> What's "le go'e"?

Well, both {go'i} and {go'e} were meant to refer to {c1 cusku c2 c3 c4 }.

>
> I would say:
>
> ko'a cusku ko'e ko'i ko'o .ije la'e di'u ranxi lo nu na cusku lo to'e
> se smuni be lo se jinvi
>
> As for the x3 of "ranxi", I now think that what characterizes this
> type of irony has to be something like "intentional", or "intentional
> for effect", as opposed to ironic situations that just happen to be
> ironic unintentionally.
>
Could be.Â But in any case it gets dropped in the formulation of the lujvo.

totus

Link

Posted by =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jorge_Llamb=EDas?= on Mon 07 of Dec, 2009 08:59 GMT

On Fri, Dec 4, 2009 at 1:21 PM, A. PIEKARSKI <totus@rogers.com> wrote:
>> >
>> > {c1 cusku c2 c3 c4 .ijebo lonu go'i cu ranxi lonu so'eda tersmu le go'e}
>> > {c1 raxsku c2 c3 c4}
>>
>> What's "le go'e"?
>
> Well, both {go'i} and {go'e} were meant to refer to {c1 cusku c2 c3 c4 }.

Then "le go'e" is c1, but that doesn't make sense. Even if you meant
"le se go'e", I still don't think that works because the expectation
is not really that most people have a meaning for c2, but rather that
people normally say what they mean.

mu'o mi'e xorxes

Link

Posted by totus on Mon 07 of Dec, 2009 08:59 GMT posts: 65

> >> >
> >> > {c1 cusku c2 c3 c4 .ijebo lonu go'i cu ranxi lonu so'eda tersmu le go'e}
> >> > {c1 raxsku c2 c3 c4}
> >>
> >> What's "le go'e"?
> >
> > Well, both {go'i} and {go'e} were meant to refer to {c1 cusku c2 c3 c4 }.
>
> Then "le go'e" is c1, but that doesn't make sense. Even if you meant
> "le se go'e", I still don't think that works because the expectation
> is not really that most people have a meaning for c2, but rather that
> people normally say what they mean.
>

Actually, I should have written {lonu go'e} in place of {le go'e}.Â In any case
I now agree with your your last comment.

ki'e totus

Link

Lojban In General

Thread actions

Search Lojban Resources