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BPFK gismu Section: Problems With ka

jarco is broken, it's just a question of how. Either:

  • jarco means "x1 showes itself to have property x2", which is of limited utility and contradicted by its notes, OR
  • jarco means "x1 shows something unspecifiable to have property x2", which is just plain broken

 
Both Bob and John believe that the second option is true, and that the problem is that jarco uses the old (pre-du'u) definition of ka. This is borne out by the following phrase in the notes: (simple presence could be expressed by leka object cu zvati), which is totally illegal under the current ka.

I'm not sure how to fix this. I think the right thing is to put a "thing having property" place between the x2 and x3. Fixes the problem, doesn't screw usage too badly (I doubt anyone much used the x3), and doesn't put the thing far away from its property in the place structure) as making the thing the x4 would. I'm totally open to suggestions, though.

Bob notes that we need to look for other cases.

There are 163 gismu that contain "propert" or the word "ka". They are listed below. I would like someone else to check them, please. I do enough around here. You're looking for "ka" (or, equivalently, "property" places) for which the thing having the property is in any way unclear.

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Of the 163 gismu listed, there are seven (cmima, gunma, lacpu, lenjo, minra, ratni, selci) that seem to be there by accident.

We can divide the remaining 156 in nine groups:

Group 1: x1 is XXX in property x2
(with eventual places such as by standard, under conditions, to observer, among members of set, etc.)

This is the biggest group with 45+10 cases. The 45 are: banli barda bebna carmi caxno cenba cimni ckaji cmalu cnici condi curve daplu denmi dikni drani fadni jdika kalsa kandi kantu makcu manfo milxe mulno mupli mutce pindi pluja prane ralci ricfu rirci ruble sampu simlu stodi traji tsal vipsi vitci vitno vrici zasni zenba. The other 10 are: gradu ranxi satci suksa, which have the property in x3 and a standard or similar in x2, cinmo ganse, which are somewhat odd, darsi tarti troci, which can take an event in x2 (makes more sense than a property), and girzu, whose place structure needs clarifying.

Group 2: x1 is XXX to x2 in (x1's) property x3
(a couple of them have by standard x4)

This group has 12+1 cases. The 12 are: cfipu cizra cnino fange mansa melbi slabu trina vajni xajmi zdile zunti. The other one is skicu, which has an additional agent place in front.

Group 3: x1 reacts XXX to x2 due to (x2's) property x3

This group has 4+1 cases: ckasu ckire fengu jilra, plus xrani in which x1 doesn't react to the property but rather affects it. (It is odd that xrani has this place structure but ckire doesn't, though.)

Group 4: x1 is XXX compared to x2 in property x3

This group has 16+3 cases: bancu darno dukti dunli frica jbini jibni jimte lamji mapti mleca panra ralju sarxe simsa zmadu, and the odd 3: karbi, which adds an agent in front, rimni, which has the property in x4, and talsa, which is somewhat strange and probably does not belong here.

Group 5: x1 is an XXX, characterized by x?

(usually with other intervening places)

This group has 22 cases: cedra cinse ciste citsi ckiku dinko fetsi jendu julne jurme klesi kruvi linsi nakni patxu pijne rafsi tansi tarci vidru xislu zbepi

Group 6: x1 (ka) is an XXX property of x2

This group has 10 cases: cfila cimde funca jinzi kampu ranji steci tcini tengu vrusi. It is not clear that all of these really need properties in x1.

Group 7: These contain a warning like this one in their definition: "x? may be a specific object, a commodity (mass), an event, or a property; pedantically, for objects/commodities, this is sumti-raising from ownership of the object/commodity". Some of them involve the transfer of this object/commodity and so presumably if it was a property it would apply to the old or to the new "owner".

This group has 16 cases: canja cirko cnemu dirba dunda friti jbera jdima jerna jinga kargu lebna pleji prali vamji vecnu

Group 8: In these, the property does not seem to apply to anything, and should probably be an event.

This group has 11 cases: bapli cmoni cumki jgira jicmu kajde kufra lakne pajni stika tsapi

Group 9: The remaining 5 cases:

ciksi x1 (person) explains x2 (event/state/property) to x3 with explanation x4 (du'u)
cipra x1 (process/event) is a test for/proof of property/state x2 in subject x3 (individ./set/mass)
cnano x1 value is a norm/average in property/amount x2 (ka/ni) among x3(s) (set) by standard x4
jarco x1 (agent) shows/exhibits/displays/reveals/demonstrates x2 (property) to audience x3
sisku x1 seeks/searches/looks for property x2 among set x3 (complete specification of set)

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bancu
banli
bapli
barda
bebna
canja
carmi
caxno
cedra
cenba
cfila
cfipu
ciksi
cimde
cimni
cinmo
cinse
cipra
cirko
ciste
citsi
cizra
ckaji
ckasu
ckiku
ckire
cmalu
cmima
cmoni
cnano
cnemu
cnici
cnino
condi
cumki
curve
daplu
darno
darsi
denmi
dikni
dinko
dirba
drani
dukti
dunda
dunli
fadni
fange
fengu
fetsi
frica
friti
funca
ganse
girzu
gradu
gunma
jarco
jbera
jbini
jdika
jdima
jendu
jerna
jgira
jibni
jicmu
jilra
jimte
jinga
jinzi
julne
jurme
kajde
kalsa
kampu
kandi
kantu
karbi
kargu
klesi
kruvi
kufra
lacpu
lakne
lamji
lebna
lenjo
linsi
makcu
manfo
mansa
mapti
melbi
milxe
minra
mleca
mulno
mupli
mutce
nakni
pajni
panra
patxu
pijne
pindi
pleji
pluja
prali
prane
rafsi
ralci
ralju
ranji
ranxi
ratni
ricfu
rimni
rirci
ruble
sampu
sarxe
satci
selci
simlu
simsa
sisku
skicu
slabu
steci
stika
stodi
suksa
talsa
tansi
tarci
tarti
tcini
tengu
traji
trina
troci
tsali
tsapi
vajni
vamji
vecnu
vidru
vipsi
vitci
vitno
vrici
vrusi
xajmi
xislu
xrani
zasni
zbepi
zdile
zenba
zmadu
zunti


Created by rlpowell. Last Modification: Thursday 10 of February, 2005 19:53:47 GMT by xorxes.