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BPFK Section: Nonce Connectives


rlpowell posts: 14214
Use this thread to discuss the BPFK Section: Nonce Connectives page.


rlpowell posts: 14214

The Red Book, C16 S19 says:

Multiple BAhE cmavo may be used in succession.

Umm, *OK*. What does it *mean*, though?

Does {mi ba'e za'e ba'e ba'e broda} imply that the second ba'e is a nonce word, or does the whole thing imply that broda is nonce, for example?

I suppose it doesn't matter much; we don't need a hard and fast rule, but some indication ("in which case they all affect the next non-BAhE word", for example) would be nice.

-Robin



wikidiscuss@lojban.org scripsit:
> BPFK Section: Nonce Connectives
> Use this thread to discuss the BPFK Section: Nonce Connectives page.

Umm, what does this batch have in common? "Nonce Connectives" doesn't
really explain it to me.

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wikidiscuss@lojban.org scripsit:
> Re: BPFK Section: Nonce Connectives
> The Red Book, C16 S19 says:
>
> Multiple BAhE cmavo may be used in succession.
>
> Umm, *OK*. What does it *mean*, though?

Iterated ba'e is for LOTS OF EMPHASIS. Iterated za'e probably doesn't mean
anything.

> Does {mi ba'e za'e ba'e ba'e broda} imply that the second ba'e is
> a nonce word, or does the whole thing imply that broda is nonce,
> for example?

I think the latter.

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rlpowell posts: 14214

On Fri, Nov 05, 2004 at 04:55:35PM -0500, John Cowan wrote:
> wikidiscuss@lojban.org scripsit:
> > BPFK Section: Nonce Connectives
> > Use this thread to discuss the BPFK Section: Nonce Connectives
> > page.
>
> Umm, what does this batch have in common? "Nonce Connectives"
> doesn't really explain it to me.

I have no idea; Nick made most of these divisions up.

Connectives

* Logical Connectives A GA GIhA GUhA GI JA
* Nonce Connectives BAhE ZEI XI
* Non-logical Connectives JOI (Shepherd: Jorge Llambias)

The above tells you what they are, but not why; you'd have to ask
Nick for that part.

-Robin

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rlpowell posts: 14214

On Fri, Nov 05, 2004 at 04:58:42PM -0500, John Cowan wrote:
> wikidiscuss@lojban.org scripsit:
> > Re: BPFK Section: Nonce Connectives The Red Book, C16 S19 says:
> >
> > Multiple BAhE cmavo may be used in succession.
> >
> > Umm, *OK*. What does it *mean*, though?
>
> Iterated ba'e is for LOTS OF EMPHASIS. Iterated za'e probably
> doesn't mean anything.

OK, cool. I'm going with "Multiple BAhE cmavo may be used in
succession, in which case they all affect the next non-BAhE word.",
then.

-Robin

--
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posts: 1912

 


 
> OK, cool. I'm going with "Multiple BAhE cmavo may be used in
> succession, in which case they all affect the next non-BAhE word.",
> then.

What if you want to mark a new BAhE as nonce? :-)

(Actually, there was at some point talk about an experimental BAhE
that meant "what follows continues the utterance of the previous
speaker, even though I'm a new speaker".)

I'm not objecting though.

mu'o mi'e xorxes

 


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rlpowell posts: 14214

On Fri, Nov 05, 2004 at 02:19:50PM -0800, Jorge Llamb?as wrote:
> (Actually, there was at some point talk about an experimental BAhE
> that meant "what follows continues the utterance of the previous
> speaker, even though I'm a new speaker".)

We can already doing that by not using ".i", can we not?

-Robin

 



posts: 1912

 


 
> On Fri, Nov 05, 2004 at 02:19:50PM -0800, Jorge Llamb?as wrote:
> > (Actually, there was at some point talk about an experimental BAhE
> > that meant "what follows continues the utterance of the previous
> > speaker, even though I'm a new speaker".)
>
> We can already doing that by not using ".i", can we not?

Not really.

A - xu do klama le zarci
B - go'i

B does not mean the go'i to form a tanru with zarci.
The parser has to recognize the change of voice and
start a new utterance. But sometimes we do want to
continue someone else'e utterance, so it would be
useful to be able to override the change-of-voice
= new-utterance default.

mu'o mi'e xorxes

 


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rlpowell posts: 14214

On Fri, Nov 05, 2004 at 02:31:02PM -0800, Jorge Llamb?as wrote:
>
> --- Robin Lee Powell wrote:
>
> > On Fri, Nov 05, 2004 at 02:19:50PM -0800, Jorge Llamb?as wrote:
> > > (Actually, there was at some point talk about an experimental
> > > BAhE that meant "what follows continues the utterance of the
> > > previous speaker, even though I'm a new speaker".)
> >
> > We can already doing that by not using ".i", can we not?
>
> Not really.
>
> A - xu do klama le zarci
>
> B - go'i

My understanding is that that is incorrect Lojban, and that B should
have said ".i go'i". If you have evidence to the contrary (besides
the fact that we all ignore it) please show me.

-Robin

 



On Fri, 5 Nov 2004, Robin Lee Powell wrote:

> On Fri, Nov 05, 2004 at 02:31:02PM -0800, Jorge Llamb?as wrote:
>>
>> --- Robin Lee Powell wrote:
>>
>>> On Fri, Nov 05, 2004 at 02:19:50PM -0800, Jorge Llamb?as wrote:
>>>> (Actually, there was at some point talk about an experimental
>>>> BAhE that meant "what follows continues the utterance of the
>>>> previous speaker, even though I'm a new speaker".)
>>>
>>> We can already doing that by not using ".i", can we not?
>>
>> Not really.
>>
>> A - xu do klama le zarci
>>
>> B - go'i
>
> My understanding is that that is incorrect Lojban, and that B should
> have said ".i go'i". If you have evidence to the contrary (besides
> the fact that we all ignore it) please show me.

..i I sentence link
sentence link/continuation; continuing sentences on
same topic; normally elided for new speakers

Seems to say that a new speaker starts a new bridi.

Personally, I think the most logical construct would be .inai (or .i nai) to
override the implicit .i, but I'm guessing the grammar for allowing that would
require hand another hand sign for asteroid-strike.
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screaming, terrified, like his passengers.

 



posts: 1912

 


 
> > A - xu do klama le zarci
> >
> > B - go'i
>
> My understanding is that that is incorrect Lojban, and that B should
> have said ".i go'i". If you have evidence to the contrary (besides
> the fact that we all ignore it) please show me.

I'll check to see if I can find something official, but surely it's
common sense that under normal circumstances a new speaker entails
a new utterance. The usage is of course overwhelmingly in favor of
this, too.

mu'o mi'e xorxes

 


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rlpowell posts: 14214

On Fri, Nov 05, 2004 at 04:39:45PM -0600, Adam D. Lopresto wrote:
> Personally, I think the most logical construct would be .inai (or
> .i nai) to override the implicit .i, but I'm guessing the grammar
> for allowing that would require hand another hand sign for
> asteroid-strike.

Actually, it's trivial, at least in my grammar.

-Robin

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clsn posts: 84

Jorge "Llambías" wrote:

>--- Robin Lee Powell wrote:
>
>
>
>>OK, cool. I'm going with "Multiple BAhE cmavo may be used in
>>succession, in which case they all affect the next non-BAhE word.",
>>then.
>>
>>
>
>What if you want to mark a new BAhE as nonce? :-)
>
>(Actually, there was at some point talk about an experimental BAhE
>that meant "what follows continues the utterance of the previous
>speaker, even though I'm a new speaker".)
>
>
Why should that be a BAhE and not a UI?

~mark

 



rlpowell posts: 14214

On Sun, Nov 14, 2004 at 08:47:31PM -0500, Mark E. Shoulson wrote:
> Jorge "Llamb??as" wrote:
>
> >--- Robin Lee Powell wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> >>OK, cool. I'm going with "Multiple BAhE cmavo may be used in
> >>succession, in which case they all affect the next non-BAhE
> >>word.", then.
> >>
> >>
> >
> >What if you want to mark a new BAhE as nonce? :-)
> >
> >(Actually, there was at some point talk about an experimental
> >BAhE that meant "what follows continues the utterance of the
> >previous speaker, even though I'm a new speaker".)
>
> Why should that be a BAhE and not a UI?

Because UI binds to the left, and one would want to use this word to
start a new sentence.

-Robin

 



rlpowell posts: 14214

On Sun, Nov 14, 2004 at 05:48:48PM -0800, Robin Lee Powell wrote:
> On Sun, Nov 14, 2004 at 08:47:31PM -0500, Mark E. Shoulson wrote:
> > Jorge "Llamb??as" wrote:
> >
> > >--- Robin Lee Powell wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >>OK, cool. I'm going with "Multiple BAhE cmavo may be used in
> > >>succession, in which case they all affect the next non-BAhE
> > >>word.", then.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >
> > >What if you want to mark a new BAhE as nonce? :-)
> > >
> > >(Actually, there was at some point talk about an experimental
> > >BAhE that meant "what follows continues the utterance of the
> > >previous speaker, even though I'm a new speaker".)
> >
> > Why should that be a BAhE and not a UI?
>
> Because UI binds to the left, and one would want to use this word
> to start a new sentence.

If we needed such a thing (and IMO we don't; that's what leaving off
".i" is for) it should either be a member of I or just ".i se'i
nai".

-Robin

 



posts: 1912

 


> Robin Lee Powell wrote:
> > Mark E. Shoulson wrote:
> > > Jorge "Llamb??as" wrote:
> > > >(Actually, there was at some point talk about an experimental
> > > >BAhE that meant "what follows continues the utterance of the
> > > >previous speaker, even though I'm a new speaker".)
> > >
> > > Why should that be a BAhE and not a UI?
> >
> > Because UI binds to the left, and one would want to use this word
> > to start a new sentence.

Mostly it would be used to *not* start a new sentence. I think the logic
of the situation requires this marker to attach to the word that follows.
It says "what comes next, starting from this word I'm marking, should
not be considered a new utterance". It doesn't really say anything
about the last word spoken by the previous speaker.

> If we needed such a thing (and IMO we don't; that's what leaving off
> ".i" is for) it should either be a member of I or just ".i se'i
> nai".

It can't be in "I"! The parse tree would come out all wrong. I suppose
{i si} could be used as a signal for the parser with that meaning.
As I said on irc, I think it makes more sense for si-clauses to
(invisibly, but still) attach to the following word rather than the
preceding one, so in that case an {i si} would behave very much
like BAhE.

Leaving off {i} is not enough because the default assumption should
be that a new speaker starts a new utterance. Assuming that a new
speaker always continues the other speaker's utterance does not
make much sense.

mu'o mi'e xorxes

 


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Jorge Llamb�as scripsit:

> Leaving off {i} is not enough because the default assumption should
> be that a new speaker starts a new utterance. Assuming that a new
> speaker always continues the other speaker's utterance does not
> make much sense.

+1 on all points. Frankly, I don't think we need a formal way to say

"This utterance continues the last person's utterance".

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posts: 1912

 


> +1 on all points. Frankly, I don't think we need a formal way to say
> "This utterance continues the last person's utterance".

I am not advocating for such a cmavo either. I think {i si} or
something like it can serve as an informal way.

The point that started this was that it is possible to have
an experimental member of BAhE marked as nonce, so the
parse BAhE (BAhE? (whatever)) (which is what Robin has now,
I think) does make sense.

mu'o mi'e xorxes

 


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rlpowell posts: 14214

I have this annoying feeling that I'm forgetting important things about xi. Help?

-Robin



arj posts: 953

Robin,

What is the idea of having "broda zei fa'o" not end the parser input?

I see no justification of this in your section, and this directly contradicts my description of fa'o in BPFK Section: Text structure cmavo.

--arj



posts: 1912

 
> What is the idea of having "broda zei fa'o" not end the parser input?

The idea is that there be no exceptions to left to right processing
of magic words. In all these cases fa'o is disabled:

zo fa'o
zoi fa'o ... fa'o
broda zei fa'o
lo'u ... fa'o ... le'u

because {zo}, {zoi}, {zei} and {lo'u}, as long as they have not
been themselves turned into "any-word" by a preceding magic word,
will always turn the following word (or words) into "any-word".

mu'o mi'e xorxes

 



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rlpowell posts: 14214

On Sun, Nov 21, 2004 at 06:35:28AM -0800, Jorge Llamb?as wrote:
>
> > What is the idea of having "broda zei fa'o" not end the parser
> > input?
>
> The idea is that there be no exceptions to left to right
> processing of magic words. In all these cases fa'o is disabled:
>
> zo fa'o
> zoi fa'o ... fa'o
> broda zei fa'o
> lo'u ... fa'o ... le'u
>
> because {zo}, {zoi}, {zei} and {lo'u}, as long as they have not
> been themselves turned into "any-word" by a preceding magic word,
> will always turn the following word (or words) into "any-word".

What he said.

-Robin

 



posts: 1912

 

Impact

 

ba'e can no longer be used by zei or bu on the left (or anything else on the left, for that matter) without using zo. It affects these words as normal, however.

 
I think that pertained to a previous version of ba'e, when it was considered a magic word.

mi'e xorxes

 



rlpowell posts: 14214

On Sun, Jan 02, 2005 at 11:14:18AM -0800, wikidiscuss@lojban.org
wrote:
> Re: BPFK Section: Nonce Connectives
>

>
Impact

>
> ba'e can no longer be used by zei or bu on the left (or anything
> else on the left, for that matter) without using zo. It affects

> these words as normal, however.

>
> I think that pertained to a previous version of ba'e, when it was
> considered a magic word.
>

Indeed.

-Robin

 



Re: BPFK Section: Nonce Connectives
Robin,

What is the idea of having "broda zei fa'o" not end the parser input?

I see no justification of this in your section, and this directly contradicts my description of fa'o in BPFK Section: Text structure cmavo.

--arj

 



Re: BPFK Section: Nonce Connectives

Impact

 

ba'e can no longer be used by zei or bu on the left (or anything else on the left, for that matter) without using zo. It affects these words as normal, however.

 
I think that pertained to a previous version of ba'e, when it was considered a magic word.

mi'e xorxes

 





The original document is available at http://tiki.lojban.org/tiki/tiki-view_forum_thread.php?forumId=1&comments_parentId=2165&topics_offset=269&topics_sort_mode=lastPost_desc