BPFK Section: Discursives

Prior Usage and Discussion

da'i as an intensional marker

It has been suggested (Jboske thread) that da'i be used as a marker of intensionality (as opposed to the default Lojban way of extensional reference). The new construal of lo as entailing intensionality makes this position irrelevant today.

da'i as a counterfactual marker

The CLL refers to da'i and da'i nai as words that can disambiguate between a factual and a counterfactual reading of a sentence. Hence, it is implied that a sentence that is intended as counterfactual, need not be marked. The only example of da'i in CLL is one that puts da'i in the antecedent of an implication.

ganai da'i do viska le mi citno mensi gi ju'o do djuno le du'u ri pazvau

If you were to see my younger sister, you would certainly know she is pregnant.

The semantics of this are more or less transparent: da'i points out a potential counterfactuality of the clause beginning with "ga nai".

da'i is generally conceived of as a rough equivalent to the subjunctive in natural languages. John Parks-Clifford recognises da'i as a de facto antecedent marker in subjunctive clauses.

John Cowan has criticised this viewpoint, referring to it as "mere attitudinal wafflings". (ref)

The scope of da'i

It is generally agreed that da'i can affect the factuality of sub-clauses. (ref) In other words, no evidence can be found of proponents of the view that insertion of da'i somewhere in the non-first position of the bridi renders the entire bridi non-factual.

da'i is a UI, which means that it follows the same interpretive convention as other UI: it affects the entire sentence if it is the first word; otherwise, it affects the word immediately to the left, and if that word is the head of a clause, the entire clause is affected.

Usage

da'i as a marker of a hypothetical antecedent

ru'a ganai da'i do ba citka lo smani gi ri na jmive

Presumably, if you were to eat a monkey, it would not be alive.

da'i as a marker of a hypothetical consequent (erroneous)

i da'i le ve xrani cu ba dukse

[If that were to happen], the damage would be too great.

.i bai le nu mi fanva kei mi cu da'i cusku zo pagbu .enai zo porpi .i ku'i mi pilno le se cusku be do

Compelled by me translating, I would say "pagbu" instead of "porpi". But I use what you said. (The discussion was about the translation of the IRC nick "fracture".)

<xod> da'i trina lo nalglico selbangu

<xorxes> i a'o go'i

Xod: Suppose we'd attract speakers of non-English languages.

Jorge: I hope so.

(A discussion about the lojban-es mailing list.)

i zo su'i binxo da'i zo sumji
The word "su'i" would become "sumji".

da'i used outside of implications

lonu da'i la betis. klama le te salci cu vajni lenu la bil. gleki

Betty's coming to the celebration was important for Bill being happy.

mi na jimpe le krinu be le si'o ko'a goi le da'i cecmu pe la and. joi la xorxes cu nitcu le'i catni selcmi
I don't understand why And and Jorge's supposed community needs the official membership organisations.

to da'i da na djica le nu le zgike kagni cu ricfu vau po'o toi
No-one would want music companies to be rich, and nothing else.

Issues


here and here.

Proposed Definitions And Examples

cmavo: ba'u (UI3)

Proposed Definition

Discursive. Used to express that something is an exaggeration. This word comprises a scale, along with "ba'u cu'i" and "ba'u nai". See also ba'u cu'i, ba'u nai, the preface.

See Also

  • {satci}
  • {dukse}

Proposed Keywords

  • exaggeration (discursive)
  • hyperbole (discursive)
  • overstatement (discursive)
  • I exaggerate

Usage Examples

None found. Constructed examples follow:

ba'u le festi derxi cu simsa la tcomolunmas. lo ni barda
The pile of garbage is as big as Mount Everest.

cmavo: ba'u cu'i (UI*3)

Proposed Definition

Discursive. Used to express that something is accurately expressed (ie. neither an exaggeration nor overstatement). This word comprises a scale, along with "ba'u" and "ba'u nai". See also ba'u, ba'u nai, the preface.

See Also

Proposed Keywords

  • accuracy (discursive)
  • to be precise

Usage Examples

.i ba'ucu'i mi bai cliva
To be precise, I go, because I am forced to.

cmavo: ba'u nai (UI*3)

Proposed Definition

Discursive. Used to express that something is an understatement. This word comprises a scale, along with "ba'u" and "ba'u cu'i". See also ba'u, ba'u cu'i, the preface.

See Also

Proposed Keywords

  • understatement (discursive)
  • to put it mildly

Usage Examples

None found. Constructed examples follow:

ba'u nai le lunra cu na cmalu
To put it mildly, the Moon is not small.

cmavo: bi'u (UI3)

Proposed Definition

Discursive. Used to flag constructs as introducing new information. This word comprises a scale, along with "bi'u nai". See also bi'u nai, the preface.

See Also

Proposed Keywords

  • new information (discursive)

Usage Examples

.i bi'u mi terpa lo nu klama fu lo vinji
Now, it so happens that I'm afraid of flying.

cmavo: bi'u nai (UI*3)

Proposed Definition

Discursive. Used to flag constructs as expressing old or already known information. This word comprises a scale, along with "bi'u". See also bi'u, the preface.

See Also

Proposed Keywords

  • old information (discursive)
  • aforementioned
  • aforesaid
  • said

Usage Examples

.i bi'unai mi terpa
As earlier mentioned, I was afraid.

cmavo: da'i (UI3)

Proposed Definition

Discursive. Used to mark the discourse as possibly taking a non-real-world viewpoint. This word comprises a scale, along with "da'i nai". See also da'i nai, the preface.

See Also

  • {sruma}

Proposed Keywords

  • supposing
  • by hypothesis
  • by conjecture
  • hypothesizing
  • conjecturing

Usage Examples

le tadji be la xorxes cu da'i ba rinka le nu ro pu me zo lo cu jursa ke smuni binxo
Jorge's method would cause all previous occurrences of "lo" to severely change meaning.

le nu da'i da tirna mi cu mukti le nu mi skicu le jibri menli bo tolcertu
If someone would listen to me, I'd tell about the idiots at work.

no'i ji'a lo nu da'i do cusku lu ke broda brode ke'e cei ke brodi brodo li'u cu rinka lo nu do palci vau zo'o
Returning to the previous topic; you would also be evil if you were to say "ke broda brode ke'e cei ke brodi brodo".

cmavo: da'i nai (UI*3)

Proposed Definition

Discursive. Used to mark the discourse as taking a real-world viewpoint. This word comprises a scale, along with "da'i nai". See also da'i, the preface.

See Also

Proposed Keywords

  • actually
  • really
  • in actuality

Usage Examples

da'inai mi milxe bilma
I am actually a bit sick.


le si'o sidju cu cinri mi .i ku'i da'inai du'eda cuntu mi

The concept of helping appeals to me. But in actuality, I already have too much on my plate.

cmavo: do'a (UI3)

Proposed Definition

Discursive. Used to express that something is broadly construed. This word comprises a scale, along with "do'a nai". See also do'a nai, the preface.

See Also

  • {dunda}

Proposed Keywords

  • generously (discursive)
  • broadly construed

Usage Examples

.i .y. do'a milxe plika'e
Broadly construed, it's, uh, slightly useful.

cmavo: do'a nai (UI*3)

Proposed Definition

Discursive. Used to express that something is narrowly construed. This word comprises a scale, along with "do'a". See also do'a, the preface.

See Also

Proposed Keywords

  • parsimoniously (discursive)
  • narrowly construed
  • at least

Usage Examples

i ku'i so'e skami pilno cu milxe do'anai ke glico se bangu
But most computer users know 'a little' English.

cmavo: je'u (UI3)

Proposed Definition

Discursive. Used to express that something is true/a matter of fact, or that a statement is tautological. This word comprises a scale, along with "je'u nai". See also je'u nai, the preface.

See Also

  • {jetnu}

Proposed Keywords

  • truth (discursive)
  • in fact
  • as a matter of fact
  • actually
  • really
  • in reality

Usage Examples

je'u ckakla
I'm going to bed for real.

.ue doi .bancus. mi pu krici lo du'u do se bloti lo je'u te falnu
Aha, Bancus, I thought that the boat for carrying you were in fact sail-powered.

cmavo: je'u nai (UI*3)

Proposed Definition

Discursive. Used to express falsity or that something is meant to be ironic. This word comprises a scale, along with "je'u". See also je'u, the preface.

See Also

Proposed Keywords

  • falsity (discursive)
  • contradictorily (discursive)
  • so-called

Usage Examples

le je'unai palci cu xanri le menli poi na jimpe le manku sevzi
This so-called "evil" is something that is thought up by minds who do not understand the dark self.

cmavo: ke'u (UI3)

Proposed Definition

Discursive. Used to express that something is a repetition or rephrasing of something expressed earlier, in other words, that the content is the same as that of something previously expressed. This word comprises a scale, along with "ke'u nai". See also ke'u nai, the preface.

See Also

  • {refbasna}
  • {krefu}
  • {rapli}
  • {velde'a}

Proposed Keywords

  • repeating (discursive)
  • again (discursive)

Usage Examples

coi ke'u
Again, hello.

.ienai ke'u
I told you, I disagree.

cmavo: ke'u nai (UI*3)

Proposed Definition

Discursive. Used to express that something is different from something expressed earlier. This word comprises a scale, along with "ke'u". See also ke'u, the preface.

See Also

Proposed Keywords

  • continuing (discursive)
  • furthermore

Usage Examples

.i ke'u nai tezu'e lo nu jinga fi la ganyn kei la link cikre le bi fatri spisa be le cibmakfa pe lo ka prije tezu'e lo nu ponse le makfa cibjgatai
Furthermore, in order to defeat Ganon, Link mends the eight scattered fragments of the triforce of wisdom, in order to hgave the magic triangle.

cmavo: la'a (UI3)

Proposed Definition

Discursive. Used to express probability. Indicates that the speaker regards the referent of the construct as probable. This word comprises a scale, along with "la'a nai". See also la'a nai, the preface.

See Also

  • {lakne}

Proposed Keywords

  • probably
  • likely
  • in all likelihood

Usage Examples

.i le mensi be mi ca xabju la boston ja'e le nu la'a mi vitke fi le se diklo
My sister lives in Boston, hence, I'll likely visit the area.

la'a le vukrygu'e tcini cu ba se jalge lo nu panpi ku'i
What's happening in Ukraine will probably result in peace, however.

la'a na go'i
That's probably not so.

cmavo: la'a nai (UI*3)

Proposed Definition

Discursive. Used to express improbability. Indicates that the speaker regards the referent of the construct as improbable. This word comprises a scale, along with "la'a". See also la'a nai, the preface.

See Also

Proposed Keywords

  • improbability (discursive)
  • unlikely

Usage Examples

i ku'i la'a nai su'o da cizra ro de ro di
But it is unlikely that something is strange to everyone in every way.

cmavo: li'a (UI3)

Proposed Definition

Discursive. Used to express obviousness. Indicates that the speaker regards the referent of the construct as obvious. This word comprises a scale, along with "li'a nai". See also li'a nai, the preface.

See Also

  • {jmifrili}

Proposed Keywords

  • clearly
  • obviously

Usage Examples

li'a la cein noi samjundi slilu cu jai fenki
Shane, who goes off and on attending the computer, is obviously crazy.

li'a la lojban zmadu la postskript lo ka frili
Clearly, Lojban is easier than Postscript.

.i li'a mi na viska ro marna pilno .i ku'i lo zasni nu bebna cu se rinka lo nu pilno lo marna .i ro prenu cu djuno la'e di'u
Of course, I haven't seen all marijuana users. But marijuana use causes temporary stupidity. Everyone knows that.

cmavo: li'a nai (UI*3)

Proposed Definition

Discursive. Used to express obscureness. Indicates that the speaker regards the referent of the construct as obscure (ie. difficult to understand). This word comprises a scale, along with "li'a". See also li'a, the preface.

See Also

  • {li'a}
  • {jminandu}

Proposed Keywords

  • obscurely

Usage Examples

li'anai go'i je'e
Right, I see. But it's complicated.

cmavo: mu'a (UI3)

Proposed Definition

Discursive. Used to flag a construct as an example. This word comprises a scale, along with "mu'a cu'i" and "mu'a nai". See also mu'a cu'i, mu'a nai, the preface.

See Also

  • {mupli}

Proposed Keywords

  • for example
  • for instance
  • e.g.

Usage Examples

mu'a lo tcima
Weather, for instance.

.i mu'a lo prenu poi xadni nitcu lo xalka cu kakne le nu morsi ri'a le nu na pinxe
For instance, people who physically have to have alcohol can die from not drinking.

cmavo: mu'a cu'i (UI*3)

Proposed Definition

Discursive. Used to express that examples are being omitted. This word comprises a scale, along with "mu'a" and "mu'a nai". See also mu'a, mu'a nai, the preface.

See Also

Proposed Keywords

  • omitting examples

Usage Examples

None found. Constructed examples follow:

so'u prenu mu'a cu'i cu rivbi lo nu nicygau le kumfa
A few people (I'm not telling who) have not cleaned up the room.

cmavo: mu'a nai (UI*3)

Proposed Definition

Discursive. Used to mark a construct as a concluding example. This word comprises a scale, along with "mu'a" and "mu'a cu'i". See also mu'a, mu'a cu'i, the preface.

See Also

Proposed Keywords

  • and such

Usage Examples

None found. Constructed examples follow:

mi pu citka lo vrici grute no'u mu'a lo plise .e lo badna mu'a nai .i ji'a mi pu citka re patlu
I ate different fruits like apples and bananas and such. I also ate two potatoes.

cmavo: pa'e (UI3)

Proposed Definition

Discursive. Used to express justness or impartiality. This word comprises a scale, along with "pa'e nai". See also pa'e nai, the preface.

See Also

  • {tcinydracu'a}
  • {tcinydrapai}
  • {vudypai}

Proposed Keywords

  • justness (discursive)
  • impartially

Usage Examples

None found. Constructed examples follow:

pa'e le skina cu mutce xlali
My unbiased opinion is that the movie is awful.

cmavo: pa'e nai (UI*3)

Proposed Definition

Discursive. Used to express prejudice, bias, or partiality. This word comprises a scale, along with "pa'e". See also pa'e, the preface.

Proposed Keywords

  • prejudice (discursive)
  • partiality

Usage Examples

None found. Constructed examples follow:

pa'e nai la lojban. je'u xamgu
Of course I'm biased, but Lojban really is quite good.

cmavo: pau (UI3)

Proposed Definition

Discursive. Used to mark a construct as a non-rhetorical question, that is, a question that is supposed to be answered. This word comprises a scale, along with "pau". See also pau, the preface.

See Also

  • {xu}
  • {pei}
  • {ma}
  • {mo}
  • {xo}
  • {cu'e}
  • {fi'a}
  • {ji}
  • {je'i}
  • {gi'i}
  • {gu'i}

Proposed Keywords

  • question:
  • tell me

Usage Examples

pau do te preti lo se du'u ma krinu lo nu balvi kei ji lo nu pilno kei
You are asking about something that is the reason for something happening in the future, and/or a usage. What is that reason, and is it for something happening in the future, a usage, or both?

ku'i le se badri cu na cliva mi'a .i ze'e go'i .i ki'u ma pau
But the sad things don't go away. They never do. Why is that so?

cmavo: pau nai (UI*3)

Proposed Definition

Discursive. Used to mark a construct as a rhetorical question, that is, a question that is not supposed to be answered. This word comprises a scale, along with "pau". See also pau, the preface.

See Also

Proposed Keywords

  • rhetorical question:

Usage Examples

.i do tavla fi ma pau nai
What are you talking about?!

cmavo: ra'u (UI3)

Proposed Definition

Discursive. Used to mark a construct as being relatively high in importance. This word comprises a scale, along with "ra'u cu'i" and "ra'u nai". See also ra'u cu'i, ra'u nai, the preface.

See Also

  • {ralju}
  • {vajni}

Proposed Keywords

  • above all
  • primarily
  • chiefly

Usage Examples

.i go'i fa ra'u le nunfanva cipra jufra pe le fanmo be ro te ctuca pagbu
Above all, the translation exercises at the end of each chapter are.

cmavo: ra'u cu'i (UI*3)

Proposed Definition

Discursive. Used to mark a construct as being of equal importance. This word comprises a scale, along with "ra'u" and "ra'u nai". See also ra'u, ra'u nai, the preface.

See Also

Proposed Keywords

  • equally important

Usage Examples

None found. Constructed examples follow:

le xe flalu cu te mukti lo nu lo ninmu cu se jibri lo se gunka poi pu steci lo nanmu .i ra'u cu'i le xe flalu cu te mukti lo nu lo nanmu cu se jibri lo se gunka poi pu steci lo ninmu
The lawgivers wanted women to work in traditionally male occupations. Equally importantly, the lawgivers wanted men to work in traditionally female occupations.

cmavo: ra'u nai (UI*3)

Proposed Definition

Discursive. Used to mark a construct as being relatively low in importance. This word comprises a scale, along with "ra'u" and "ra'u cu'i". See also ra'u, ra'u cu'i, the preface.

See Also

Proposed Keywords

  • incidentally

Usage Examples

ra'u nai mi djuno le du'u zoi u rlpowell u na cmevla
Incidentally, I know that "rlpowell" is not a Lojban name.

cmavo: sa'e (UI3)

Proposed Definition

Discursive. Used to express exactness. This word comprises a scale, along with "sa'e nai". See also sa'e nai, the preface.

See Also

  • {satci}
  • {ba'u cu'i}
  • {jibni}

Proposed Keywords

  • precisely speaking
  • to be precise
  • to be exact

Usage Examples

sa'e mi pinxe lo xunre vanju
To be precise, I drank red wine.

je'e .i mi na jimpe sa'e fi le cfila
Okay. To be precise, it is understanding the flaws that I don't.

cmavo: sa'e nai (UI*3)

Proposed Definition

Discursive. Used to express inexactness. This word comprises a scale, along with "sa'e". See also sa'e, the preface.

See Also

  • {ji'i}
  • {ba'u}
  • {ba'u nai}

Proposed Keywords

  • roughly
  • approximately

Usage Examples

None found. Constructed examples follow:

sa'e nai lo mikce cu cikre lo prenu
Roughly speaking, a doctor repairs people.

cmavo: sa'u (UI3)

Proposed Definition

Discursive. Used to mark a construct as being simply put. This word comprises a scale, along with "sa'u nai". See also sa'u nai, the preface.

See Also

  • {sampu}
  • {pluja}

Proposed Keywords

  • simply speaking
  • simply put

Usage Examples

None found. Constructed examples follow:

sa'u lo remna cu gunma lo so'i selci
Simply put, a human being is an aggregate of many cells.

cmavo: sa'u nai (UI*3)

Proposed Definition

Discursive. Used to mark a construct as being an elaboration. This word comprises a scale, along with "sa'u". See also sa'u, the preface.

See Also

Proposed Keywords

  • furthermore

Usage Examples

None found. Constructed examples follow:

sa'u nai ro selci be lo remna cu cmima pa lo so'i klesi
Furthermore, each cell in the human body belongs to one out of many classes.

cmavo: ta'o (UI3)

Proposed Definition

Discursive. Used to mark a construct as digressive. This word comprises a scale, along with "ta'o nai". See also ta'o nai, the preface.

See Also

  • {ni'o}
  • {denpa}
  • {cneterta'a}

Proposed Keywords

  • by the way
  • incidentally

Usage Examples

ta'o xu do se cmene zo robin. ji'a
By the way, are you called Robin as well?

ta'o mi caca'o citka lo stasu belo dembi
By the way, I am eating a bean stew right now.

cmavo: ta'o nai (UI*3)

Proposed Definition

Discursive. Used to express a return to main point. This word comprises a scale, along with "ta'o". See also ta'o, the preface.

See Also

  • {no'i}

Proposed Keywords

  • back to the point

Usage Examples

.i ta'onai mi ca jimpe tu'a zo marji .i .e'u pilno lu marce vorme li'u
But back to the point; I now understand the word "material". I suggest using "vehicle door".

cmavo: to'u (UI3)

Proposed Definition

Discursive. Used to express brevity. This word comprises a scale, along with "to'u nai". See also to'u nai, the preface.

See Also

  • {tordu}
  • {clani}
  • {tcidu}

Proposed Keywords

  • shortly
  • in brief
  • in short

Usage Examples

.i to'u ko ca troci tu'a la dikt
In short, try Dict.

cmavo: to'u nai (UI*3)

Proposed Definition

Discursive. Used to express elaborateness. This word comprises a scale, along with "to'u". See also to'u, the preface.

See Also

Proposed Keywords

  • in detail
  • elaborately

Usage Examples

.i to'unai mi pensi le smuni be lu ko no'e zasti li'u
In detail, I'm considering the meaning of the command "exist somewhat".

cmavo: va'i (UI3)

Proposed Definition

Discursive. Used to mark a construct as a reformulation. This word comprises a scale, along with "va'i nai". See also va'i nai, the preface.

See Also

Proposed Keywords

  • in other words
  • put differently
  • to rephrase

Usage Examples

va'i do tugni mi xu
In other words, you agree with me?

.i va'i mu'i ma do cusku lo judri
To rephrase, why did you say an address?

cmavo: va'i nai (UI*3)

Proposed Definition

Discursive. Used to mark a construct as a verbatim repetition. This word comprises a scale, along with "va'i". See also va'i, the preface.

See Also

  • {si'a}

Proposed Keywords

  • in their exact words
  • as they put it

Usage Examples

None found. Constructed examples follow:

do co'a mutce tatpi .i va'i nai do co'a mutce tatpi
You are feeling very tired. Yes, you are feeling very tired.

cmavo: zu'u (UI3)

Proposed Definition

Discursive. Used to mark a construct as representing one viewpoint. This word comprises a scale, along with "zu'u nai". See also zu'u nai, the preface.

See Also

  • {ku'i}
  • {si'a}
  • {karbi}
  • {frica}
  • {dukti}

Proposed Keywords

  • on the one hand

Usage Examples

None found. Constructed example follow:

zu'u le stuzi cu jai tolkargu .i zu'u nai ri glare dukse
On the one hand, the place is cheap. On the other hand, it's too hot.

cmavo: zu'u nai (UI*3)

Proposed Definition

Discursive. Used to mark a construct as representing another, contrasting viewpoint. This word comprises a scale, along with "zu'u". See also zu'u, the preface.

See Also

  • {ku'i}

Proposed Keywords

  • on the other hand

Usage Examples

.i zu'u nai le degji pi so'e roi te ganse jdika ri'a lo nu mi to'e xamgu sipna
On the other hand, my fingers usually get numb when I haven't slept well.

Notes

The most contentious part of this section seems to be the definition of da'i. da'i is different from the other discursives, because it may be irrealis — the definition seems to affect the truth-functional meaning of the sentence in which it occurs.

Impact

da'i is sanctioned as a marker of the antecedent in subjunctive clauses. Prior usage that ties da'i to the consequent of the subjunctive clause is deemed erroneous.

Poll

BPFK Poll: Discursives
BPFK Poll: Discursives
  • I agree with the current contents of BPFK Section: Discursives.
  • I disagree with the current contens of BPFK Section: Discursives.
View Results
(Votes: 1)

Created by rlpowell. Last Modification: Saturday 23 of August, 2014 13:54:59 GMT by Ilmen.