History: BPFK Section: Logical Connectives

Preview of version: 83 (current)

First Version Version

Proposed Tags

These are words that might be used pedagogically to mark these word types per http://teddyb.org/robin/Documentation+Standards+For+Lojban(external link).

  • (sumti/bridi-tail/general) afterthought logical connective, which we're just calling ALC
    • We might want to come up with something better than "bridi-tail" there.
    • needs a Lojban equivalent?
    • some piece of documentation needs to specify what "general ALC" actually can connect
  • (tanru/general) forethought logical connective (FLC)
    • some piece of documentation needs to specify what "general FLC" actually can connect
    • needs a Lojban equivalent?




  • Should we do ijeks as well as jeks? That would simplify the jek definitions, but should we bother?
  • Unlimited forethought connection would be really nice. This would need a new cmavo something like {bei}, for all but the last connection. So {ge ko'a gi ko'e} is unchanged, but {ge ko'a gi'oi ko'e gi ko'i} means the same as {ko'a .e ko'e .e ko'i}. {gi} marks "this is the last branch of the next-outer-most FLC".
    • < ksion> Plus probably a terminator in case you forgot saying {gi} before the last argument. < ksion> (That's mostly for speech convienience though).
  • Since all LC are theoretically syntactic sugar for {.i JA}, how to GOhA interact with them?
    • Example: {ko'a brode gi'e broda} — what's {go'i} after that? {ko'a broda}? Or {ko'a brode gi'e broda} whatever that means as single bridi.
  • Also {vo'A}. What does {ko'a broda ko'e gi'e brode ko'i vo'e} mean? Does {vo'e} refer to {ko'e} or {ko'i}?
    • In most cases it probably should be "refers to the bridi it itself is embedded in".
  • What is the meaning of SE + logical connective, when the SE is something other than {se}?
  • There are gismu equivalents of A and E, but not O and U. This seems unfortunate. Does {nibli} count as an equiv of O?
  • Speaking of which, what do {kanxe} and {vlina} actually mean? Is {le kanxe be ko'a bei ko'e cu broda} semantically equivalent to {ko'a .e ko'e cu broda}? If not, what *is* it semantically equivalent to?
    • Yet another use/mention problem in the gismu. How many does that make?
    • ksion in #lojban suggests: {la'e lu ko'a broda .ije ko'a brode li'u cu kanxe lo du'u ko'a broda kei lo du'u ko'a brode}, which is horrible; I (camgusmis) would rather redefine than be stuck with shit like that.
    • {i lo du'u ge broda gi brode cu kanxe lo du'u broda kei lo du'u brode} from dbrock; same thing
  • xorxes had a proposal that replaces all the logical connectives with JA, which is rather impressive. See http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/browse_thread/thread/131b44ba66d8a108/bac4b378caafbdeb(external link)
  • All of the definitions need Lindar's touch - I mean, they need expanding into something more, um, conversational English. - .aionys., at prompting from arj.
  • Order of operations for multiple sumti connectives in a bridi needs to be resolved. Is {ko'a .a ko'e broda fo'a .e fo'e} the same as {ko'a broda fo'a .e fo'e .i ja ko'e broda fo'a .e fo'e} (LtR) or is it {ko'a .a ko'e broda fo'a .i je ko'a .a ko'e broda fo'e} (RtL, which would be unusual, or if "and" takes precedence over "or", as in many formal systems)?


The current definitions are expected to have no particular impact;
they should just clarify the current state.

Proposed Definitions and Examples

































Relevant prior discussions



http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/browse_thread/thread/575ef0d0130f5dfa/fbc21c895ea7e7db(external link)

A parser bug that causes li revo .a li pare to not be recognized, because it needs LALR(2).

http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/browse_thread/thread/131b44ba66d8a108/bac4b378caafbdeb(external link)

Unification of all logical connectives into selma'o JA.

Proposal? to allow FLC tanru conn inside of gadri. (this already seems to work by some parsers)

http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/browse_thread/thread/29ca7d8d4ac7b045/47216c973d48c8ae(external link)

A proposal for a new “narrative connective”.

http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/browse_thread/thread/654fd661714280ab/d86c7be1eaea0f6c(external link)

A proposal for adding GI+JOI as a gihek.

http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/browse_thread/thread/4b186a2b0ee97300/6ff8942d86acdf3b(external link)

NUhU_gap as a cheat to avoid having more logical connectives.

http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/browse_thread/thread/c5c29b58f5b55844/b066953d785461c5(external link)

Proposal: allow jeks wherever joiks are allowed

http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/browse_thread/thread/417d12c084a1f1b1/58c543b6edd9c5bb(external link)

A Zipfean argument against making ji the tanru afterthought connective question

http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/jboske/message/3026(external link)

Inconsistent order of logical connectives with different types of tags

http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/jboske/message/2665(external link)

Inconsistency in the syntax of tanru-internal forethought logical connectives

http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/browse_thread/thread/93fb5ae01c9004d2/5c32c8805e30dadf(external link)

A change proposal so that geks can be used in both bridi-tails and sentences.


http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/browse_thread/thread/9a6093d2f3b8fc1c/db7aeb8673367cc9(external link)

Whether or not jeks in tanru in description sumti can be expanded to eks between sumti.

http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/browse_thread/thread/74ebb9b641d29581/da2e404d84be9713(external link)

What is the meaning of SE + logical connective, when the SE is something other than se?

http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/browse_thread/thread/d16e34b4b7a6b86d/1218a918bc69ff13(external link)

All logical connectives expand to bridi logical connection.

http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/browse_thread/thread/fb116c898bffaf40/bd23fe39e5ea494e(external link)

On the relationship between logical connectives and quantifiers.

http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/browse_thread/thread/648a3ad2bf6d5a4c/69788377c36fc3a4(external link)

In tense constructs, what binds more tightly of connectives or modifiers?

http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/browse_thread/thread/411b216008b6bc2e/cb1f5031b8b8c301(external link)

How do logical connectives interact with intensional descriptions?

http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/browse_thread/thread/68ea52479af6de13/f181255b8a32e345(external link)

SE + logical connective, when the SE is something other than se, is nonsense

http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/browse_thread/thread/928ecca8e7cab2a0/d25e56fc00f677c6(external link)

How do quantified tenses work when they tag a sumti with logical connectives?

http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/browse_thread/thread/f118dc3d365bef06/a58f848ee6a9c0dd(external link)

How do logical connectives interact with intensional descriptions?

http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/browse_thread/thread/1d9caabd2b8abc3/0e21d7388838e537(external link)

The use of da'i in hypothetical implications


http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/browse_thread/thread/f93bfd5b099a3487/2797d3b6427230d3(external link)

Do variables scope over logical connectives?

http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/browse_thread/thread/14b46750fb6f29a4/e39efe9efead6469(external link)

How far does the scope of a prenex extend?

http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/browse_thread/thread/860de16cdfa5222e/963d9a1f874f313f(external link)

http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/browse_thread/thread/60ba8c5338249aee/99bd5da231aef65d(external link)

http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/browse_thread/thread/c246dc4fe8d77681/218f03984b1085ff(external link)

http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/browse_thread/thread/792da8bce6712834/6dfc1081a1b7d907(external link)

Imperative connectives. What is the Lojban translation of “Stop, or I'll shoot”? Do imperatives scope over ijeks?

http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/browse_thread/thread/6d04858f0ee8153b/e08e347f0d2b66a9(external link)

zo'e doesn't preserve identity across logical connectives.


http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/browse_thread/thread/9a6093d2f3b8fc1c/db7aeb8673367cc9(external link)

Distribution of connectives in tanru

http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/browse_thread/thread/490556aeccff6444/296d026d3ccc0710(external link)

Distribution of sumti logical connectives

http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/browse_thread/thread/84f40bcff10a6955/51747f4034c8110e(external link)

Distribution of tanru modification over logical connectives

http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/browse_thread/thread/cb26a0e38c54dab8/d38cd375b2298397(external link)

Distribution of sumti logical connectives

http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/browse_thread/thread/9a6093d2f3b8fc1c/21750dfb5f267039(external link)

Distributive or non-distributive grouping of tanru-internal logical connectives

http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/browse_thread/thread/1f589af7e00ce19a/7f7cac5a3d73981c(external link)

Logical connectives can't expand out of abstractions, which are referentially opaque

http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/browse_thread/thread/5eca5ed131b1a814/e026184d79ff8fb8(external link)

Tense logical connection is expandable

http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/browse_thread/thread/490556aeccff6444/d3c617d936314822(external link)

What is the correct expansion of a bridi where multiple of the arguments have logical connectives?

Other Crap


General Notes


  • We need a way to easily say "would you like cream or sugar or a donut?" using ji or similar. I *think* this is straightforward, but this is a note to think about it.

There was a recent discussion(external link) of this that had people present their different solutions. There are two types: the one with {ji} and the ones with choice from a set.

do djica A ji B ji C ...
The helpful answers can all be covered with "(na).e(nai) .e(nai) ..."

A B zo'u do djica ma

do djica ma poi cmima A ce B ce C ce ...

do djica ma poi me A .a B .a C .a ...

The answers "A", "B", "C", ..., "A joi B", ... "noda", "roda". And if you want to be less than helpful: "pada", "su'oda", "me'ida", and so on.

  • How do you reply to {do djica lo ladru ji nai lo sakta} if you want both? Again, might be obvious/well understood, but could use checking.

According to xorxes and mark shoulson (in the thread linked above) the answer is .eja'ai, using {ja'ai} aka the cmavo affirmer.

  • what does {mi djica lo ladru .e nai lo sakta na .e lo titnanba} mean (double negative)?


Legend: v=view , s=source
Date User IP Edit Comment Version   Action
Thu 21 of Aug., 2014 17:49 GMT Ilmen Adding a note. 83
v  s
Thu 21 of Aug., 2014 17:40 GMT Ilmen Fixing a link 82 v  s
Sat 14 of June, 2014 17:40 GMT mukti Formatting 81 v  s
Sat 14 of June, 2014 16:56 GMT selpa'i   80 v  s
Thu 12 of June, 2014 05:27 GMT danr SELMAhO -> GUhA 79 v  s
Tue 10 of June, 2014 20:39 GMT selpa'i   78 v  s
Tue 10 of June, 2014 05:03 GMT danr add some boxes 77 v  s
Tue 10 of June, 2014 03:26 GMT mukti   76 v  s
Thu 29 of May, 2014 22:15 GMT selpa'i   75 v  s
Thu 25 of Aug., 2011 18:24 GMT Eimi   74 v  s
Wed 12 of Jan., 2011 13:25 GMT RossOgilvie   73 v  s
Fri 07 of Jan., 2011 20:35 GMT admin   72 v  s
Fri 07 of Jan., 2011 19:43 GMT admin   71 v  s
Wed 29 of Dec., 2010 07:56 GMT lindarthebard   70 v  s
Sun 26 of Dec., 2010 03:34 GMT lindarthebard   69 v  s
Tue 26 of Oct., 2010 07:22 GMT lindarthebard   68 v  s
Tue 19 of Oct., 2010 00:38 GMT lindarthebard   67 v  s
Tue 19 of Oct., 2010 00:37 GMT lindarthebard   66 v  s
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Fri 15 of Oct., 2010 05:41 GMT eyeonus   64 v  s
Fri 15 of Oct., 2010 05:13 GMT eyeonus   63 v  s
Fri 15 of Oct., 2010 04:58 GMT eyeonus   62 v  s
Tue 12 of Oct., 2010 03:42 GMT lindarthebard   61 v  s
Tue 12 of Oct., 2010 03:26 GMT lindarthebard   60 v  s
Tue 12 of Oct., 2010 03:24 GMT lindarthebard   59 v  s
Sun 04 of July, 2010 10:03 GMT arj Addedl inks to prior discussions 58 v  s
Mon 21 of June, 2010 01:02 GMT rlpowell   57 v  s
Sun 20 of June, 2010 20:00 GMT rlpowell   56 v  s
Sun 20 of June, 2010 07:45 GMT rlpowell   55 v  s
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Sun 20 of June, 2010 06:57 GMT rlpowell   50 v  s
Sun 20 of June, 2010 06:20 GMT rlpowell   49 v  s
Sun 20 of June, 2010 05:04 GMT lindarthebard I probably failed at that translation. 48 v  s
Sun 20 of June, 2010 04:45 GMT lindarthebard   47 v  s
Sun 20 of June, 2010 04:22 GMT lindarthebard Watch Lucasfilms roll in the lawsuits. Hypocrites... 46 v  s
Sun 20 of June, 2010 03:48 GMT lindarthebard Added (potentially fail) example. 45 v  s
Sun 20 of June, 2010 03:31 GMT rlpowell   44 v  s
Sun 20 of June, 2010 01:31 GMT rlpowell   43 v  s
Sun 20 of June, 2010 01:22 GMT rlpowell   42 v  s
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Sun 20 of June, 2010 00:19 GMT rlpowell   37 v  s
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Sat 19 of June, 2010 23:43 GMT rlpowell   35 v  s
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