WikiDiscuss

> !! Proposed Definition of noi
>
> ;noi (NOI):Incidental clause. noi is Lojban's non-restrictive
> relative clause.

That should be "non-restrictive relative clause marker" or something like
that. {noi} itself is not the clause.

> The
> "non-restrictive" part means that the information in the noi
> clause is not sufficient to completely identify the referents of the sumti
> that noi is attached to.

That's not quite like that. The information may very well be sufficient
in some cases (ti noi mamta mi} "this, who is my mother,..."

The "non-restrictive" part means that the information is not used to
select from the referents of the sumti just those that satisfy the
clause.

> For
> logical scoping purposes, the scope of a noi clause is entirely outside
> the scope of the statement in which it is contained; its scope occurs at the
> point immediately after the scope in which it was contained dies in the arse.

I'm not sure this is quite dictionary-style language.

I'm not quite sure what the scope of {noi} is exactly either.
In {la djan jinvi lo du'u ti noi mamta mi cu klama}, is the noi
clause a part of John's beliefs or is it the speaker's comment?

> The noi clause should be considerd, for scoping purposes, as occuring in
> its own virtual sentence (techinically, its own "statement"
> production in the formal grammar) after both the one in which it is contained
> and all further statements that are logically connected to the one in which
> it was contained.

That would mean it is not necessarily part of what John believes.

> la fengu lo smacu noi fy ke'a cpacu cu penmi le zdani
> ''The Mad met a mouse, M (The Mad) had acquired it (the mouse), in the
> house.''
> Had to re-order the translation a bit to make the English work; in the Lojban
> the "met" part comes after the comma-delimited clause.

Why "the Mad"? The original was "Fury". At least make it "the Angry",
"the Mad" makes me think of {la fenki}.

> The "restrictive" part
> means that the information in the poi clause is intended to completely
> identify the referents of the sumti that poi is attached to.

Rather: it selects from all the referents of the sumti
just those that satisfy the relative clause. Which I see is more
or less what you say next, but why "completely identify"? You may
not have any of them identified.

> poi clause is also true. poi is often used with da to restrict
> da to some part of all the things which exist. Inside a noi clause,

That would be a "poi" clause.

> pau re'i pat ta poi zvati le canko cu mo
> Question to Pat: that which at the window is what?
> Pat: What is that at the window?

With demonstratives, it would seem that both {poi} and {noi} can be
used, though {noi} makes more sense to me. The referent of {ta} is
presumably only the thing that the speaker is asking about, so there
is no need to further restrict it. With {poi}, it would seem to say
"Out of all those things, what are the ones that are at the window?"

> particularily if one wishes to add another sumti to the outer bridi). The
> "restrictive" part means that the information in the voi clause
> is intended to completely identify the referents of the sumti that voi is
> attached to.

I think {voi} should be non-restrictive, because the speaker already has
just the referents that they have in mind in mind. Further restriction
seems unnecessary.

> !! Examples of voi Usage
>
> ti voi nanmu cu ninmu
> This which is (non-veridically) a man is a woman.
> The classic example of voi usage, presumably referring to a case of
> mistaken identity or a transvestite or transgendered individual.

This is non-restrictive. {ti} is already identified by the time
we say it is (non-veridicaly) a man.

> so'e po'o cuxna la cnemokca cedra voi sete pilno le se jmaji

No translation?

> ganse vasxu le nicte vacri voi ranti
> Breathing the night air, which is soft.
> Presumably, voi is being used to deal with the fact that ranti
> probably does not literally apply to air.

This again seems to be a non-restrictive use.

(I'll go over the remaining definitions later.)

mu'o mi'e xorxes

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