LLG 2002 Annual Meeting Minutes

Minutes of the 2002 Annual Meeting of the Members of The Logical Language Group, Inc.

The fourteenth Annual Meeting of the Members of The Logical Language Group, Inc. was called to order on July 28, 2002 at 10:35 AM EDT.

Non-members in attendance at the annual meeting were:

  • Adam Raizen voted in as member during the meeting
  • Avital Oliver voted in as member during the meeting
  • Allan Bailey voted in as member during the meeting
  • Aruna Vassar voted in as member during the meeting

Roll call was taken of the members.

Members attending (11) were:

Members "present" (12) by proxy:

  • And Rosta Proxy to Cowan
  • Athelstan proxy to Nora, with instructions
  • Dave Barton proxy to Bob
  • David Crowell proxy to Mark
  • David Twery proxy to Cowan
  • David Young Proxy to Nora
  • John Hodges proxy to John Clifford
  • Jorge Llambias proxy to Bob, with instructions
  • Nick Nicholas proxy to Cowan
  • Robin Turner proxy to Bob
  • Tommy Whitlock proxy to Nora
  • Yevgueni Sklyanin proxy to Bob

Members not in attendance (7 - 1 removed = 6) were:

  • Arnt Johansen proxy to Charles Hope, who arrived later in the meeting
  • Ethan Fremen
  • Charles Hope (Xod) (arrived later in the meeting, after roll call)
  • Guy Garnett
  • Ivan Derzhanski
  • Karen Stein* removed from membership
  • Veijo Vilva

Those marked with * were removed per motion last meeting per motion that if they did not participate by presence or proxy at the next 2002 annual meeting they would be terminated with no further vote needed.

Roll call of members: Taken

23 present in person or by proxy, 6 absent. - Quorum.

No proper notice of meeting by Secretary/Treasurer was given (per Article 3, Section 4 of the Bylaws); therefore no bylaw amendments may be made.

Chair turned over to Vice President, John Cowan.

Reading of minutes:

Error in print heading noted - still says "Minutes of the 1997 ..." although centered first line has accurate date. To be corrected.

Report of officers: Secretary/Treasurer, by President (Bob LeChevalier)

  • Delinquent several quarters on sales tax.
  • Book orders current for all paid orders. Can't do invoicing orders (many from Europe).
  • Liabilities:
    • $5,000 - 6,000 in balances.
    • CAIS (Internet service provider) $800 per year. CAIS has been cancelled, but unsettled accounts payable unknown because of buyout of CAIS; possibly as large $2,000 amt because of buyouts.
    • Visa/MC/Amex $30.
  • Bottom line on loan money for book printing: $3000 left on loan + 2 years interest = approximately $3,500 left to repay. $3,600 in bank, so in theory could pay off book loan.
  • Book sales total about 380-390; 20-25 since last year.

Read message from Robert A. McIvor (CEO of Loglan Institute):

"Because of the baselining of Lojban, I do not see any likelihood of any fusion of the two groups in the short term. Most new members we are getting are aware of Lojban, and have chosen Loglan for one reason or another. When I get queries about the differences, I try to be quite objective, and I would hope that LLG would, in like circumstances, present Loglan as it is today, and not as it once was.

As for long term prospects, I am not sure that either shows great promise, but I would have to concede that, as of today, Lojban has better prospects."

Report of officers: President:

Accomplished last year:

  • Nick Nicholas: Level 0 packet/book & Lesson book close to publication quality
  • Robin Powell took over web site completely - (thanks).

Per Robin, "Co-location facility costs 25/mo - paying out of pocket". LLG will receipt this amount as donation.

  • Alice complete, but subject to editing.
  • Lojban Wiki healthy (the Wiki is a web page anyone edits).
  • Many un-official things going on.

Report of Committees:

(non-committee item) John Clifford has a website on Lojban & logic: 2 sections on website are modifiers & propositional logic.

Level 0 package committee: (1998,99: John Cowan, chairman; David Twery; Tommy Whitlock, Bob LeChevalier) nothing to say (but Nick is done with creating level 0 book)

Internet site committee (1999: David Twery, chairman; Shawn Lasseter; Nick Nicholas): Per Robin Powell: Haven't done most of what wanted; web-site & server & mailing list running.

Finance Committee: defunct

On-line ordering (1997: Mark Shoulson, chairman): no report.

Worldcon committee (1998: Keith Lynch, chairman; David Bowen; Bob LeChevalier): Flyers handed out. Also at other conventions. Will continue till run out.

Meet notice (1994: Bob LeChevalier and John Cowan): not done.

Grant proposal (1996: Dave Barton, chairman; David Twery; Bob LeChevalier): no report.

Streamlining meeting procedures (1999: John Cowan, chairman): Going a little better. Nothing else.

Consideration of new members:

Present, but not members

Qualifications, responsibilities explained. All four desired to be considered.

Consideration of removal of old members:

Roll of old members for removal:

  • Ethan Fremen
  • Guy Garnett
  • Ivan Derzhanski
  • Veijo Vilva

(notice: if don't ..., terminate automatically - see last yr)

  • MOVED: To send notice like last year's see below to Ethan Fremen - PASSED with no objection
  • MOVED: To send notice like last year's see below to Guy Garnett - PASSED with no objection

last year's wording: %22To send notice to ... that if they do not participate by presence or proxy at the next annual meeting they will be terminated with no further vote needed

  • Ivan: sense of the meeting was to take no action
  • Veijo: sense of the meeting was to take no action

Action item given to Bob LeChevalier: contact Ethan, Guy.

Election of Board of Directors:

Current Board includes Bob LeChevalier, President; John Cowan, Vice President; Nora LeChevalier, Secretary/Treasurer; John Clifford; Charles Hope; Shawn Lasseter; Nick Nicholas. Max of 7 allowed.

Shawn wishes to resign; no internet access. - revoked after discussion.

No new volunteers.

[At this point Charles Hope (Xod) enters meeting]

Old business: None

New business:

Repaying book debt (to LeChevaliers): 8% loan:

  • If we did, cash on hand would be about $0 till new donations.
  • Bob: "cost of logfest $400-500 not yet covered".
  • Sales tax debt minimal. Other debts: CAIS potential (about 1-2K), Visa $30/mo, balances
  • When we published The Complete Lojban Language, Perry Smith gave $1,000 as a quasi-donation to publish and would like to be paid back if LLG is ever in position to pay back.
  • Motion re-pay $2000 to bob - withdrawn (will need the money for next book publication)

Re: Robert A. McIvor statement:

  • MOVED: That the Secretary be authorized to extend peaceful intent and thanks for his statement. - PASSED as amended below with no objection
  • Friendly amendment: To specifically include that we will also be objective - ACCEPTED.

Book status per phone conversation with Nick: Last 2 weeks in September is deadline for any changes. Nora to produce index. At that point send to printer. Dec-Jan, Nick may come to US.

Possibilities for printing books:

Publisher formalPrint run costs: 1000 - $3500 hardback lessons (break-even point is 200 books at $20/copy); $2500 paper level 0. We do charge shipping. Historically level 0 has asked $5 donation; therefore of it would be to printer.print-on-demand informal - by individuals at Kinko's in PDF format.Real print on demandAction item for Mark Shoulson: to find out about real print-on-demand feasibility. Later made a motion - see 3^rd motion down.


Suggestion that a request for information on language gets flyer (1-page) as answer Robin to formulate; should not send out level 0 packet ie: more than 10 pgs

Bob: estimate about a dozen/year; internet people & those with e-mail are pointed to site, and most others out-of-country so postage anyway.

Non-internet people don't know, so we may need to expect more at some point.

  • MOVED: That material sent for free to people who merely express interest be limited to a standard #10 envelope contents by default - WITHDRAWN

Informal print on demand:

Won't work unless 1 non-US volunteer (because of shipping costs) Robin

Volunteers to out-of-pocket publication costs. So, tax deductible.

Can do as an experiment; could give balance to overseas volunteers for cost (who can't get tax deduction). Bob

Informal print-on-demand: Robin, Avital, Allan volunteer.

Action item for Avital: check prices for Europe shipping from Israel & print-and-bind prices.

  • MOVED: That level 0 package, upon release for publication, should be published using informal print-on-demand with specific procedures of on-demand publishing being set up by Robin Powell (and any other appointees), with the initial plan that no expense incur to LLG (ie: no net cost) in support. President will at discretion indicate whether new correspondence warrants level 0 book or less substantial response. Second committee (headed by Robin Powell) to develop the less-substantial response. - PASSED with no objection


Print-on-demand won't work - too long.

  • MOVED: That a committee (Mark Shoulson to head) investigate real print-on-demand for the textbook and level-0 book, and defer decision on printing until report of Board - PASSED.

Robin Powell stated for the record: Not spend more than $1000 until Bob repaid.

Official LLG projects:

John Cowan proposed that we institute official LLG projects as follows:

  1. Leader of project presents it to President.
  2. President consults Board.
  3. If Board approves, transmit information to Webmaster to post on official project list.
  4. Webmaster to poll project leaders at least every 3 months.
  5. Project leaders must then report to Board.
  6. Board may decide to not continue project as official.

  • MOVED: That we institute official LLG projects as proposed above - PASSED as see Amendment a and Friendly Amendment b
  • Amendment a not accepted as a friendly amendment: That the initiators mail the request to both webmaster and president, and if there is no response from the Board in an agreed-upon time frame it will mean it's automatically added to the official project list as official by default - PASSED AS AMENDED by friendly amendment b, without objection.


"reasonable" would be 1 month.

Availability of deferral requested by Board. Notation that official by default.

John Clifford for record: vitally needed

Robin Powell for record: if amend never used, will offer public apology & vote to withdraw amendment at next meet.

  • Friendly amendment b to Friendly amendment a: replace "official by default" with "no objection" and include availability of deferral if board asks. - ACCEPTED
  • MOVED: To give the President discretion to change the status of any and all committees to projects without consulting the Board to discharge the committee, and to identify the resulting project as private or public listing. - PASSED without objection.
  • MOVED: That as of the year 2005 and after, all official LLG business must be discussed in lojban (where "official LLG business" is Board and LLG member meetings) and that there be a strong preference that all official business be available in lojban (perhaps in addition to other languages) - PASSED AS REPLACED by Amendment b as modified by Friendly Amendment b2

Note: there was much discussion. The final vote was 16 in favor, 5 opposed. Amendment c was defeated narrowly.

  • Amendment a: Institute only after 2 consecutive meetings of less than 2 hours - FAILED for lack of second
  • Amendment b: That instead, starting next year, all official meetings of LLG members and board be officially bi-lingual (may speak in either English or lojban) with translation by request of any member, and that it will be an old business item each year to discuss further conversion to preference for lojban during business matters. - PASSED as amended in Friendly Amendment b2
  • Amendment b1 to Amendment b: That meetings be bilingual, but motions and amendments be recorded in lojban - TABLED to next year.
  • Friendly Amendment b2 to Amendment b: Append "but are encouraged to speak in lojban" to "may speak in either English or lojban" - ACCEPTED
  • Amendment c to Amendment b: That all motions and amendments must be officially stated and recorded in lojban starting 2005 - FAILED.
  • MOVED: To begin to put any official lojban items on web into lojban (and perhaps English, but not necessary) as soon as possible - PASSED AS AMENDED
  • Friendly Amendment: not "as soon as possible", but "as resources allow" - ACCEPTED

Delegating paperwork.

Robin Powell offered to pay for up to $500/yr for a paperwork worker (if starts occurring within 6 months). Bob means to implement accounting package and to convert data (address list & accounts). John Clifford pledged some backup after the initial amount from Robin. Small but non-zero possibility that Robin will not have job, however.

Bob: paperworker would have to be hired as independent contractor.

  • MOVED: To approve hiring of worker for paperwork on accounts and address list, as discussed above - PASSED


Address on flyer should have separate e-mail address so we can identify responses from flyers.

  • MOVED: That LLG be favorable to Jay's on-line collaborative dictionary - PASSED
  • MOVED: To Commend Robin Powell for exceptional efforts in converting the LLG site, and for exceeding expectations on presentation to public - PASSED.
  • MOVED: To express thanks to Nick Nicholas and Robin Turner for their work on the textbook - PASSED

Next Logfest: The intention is to hold it the last weekend in July

Meeting adjourned approximately 1:40 PM EDT.

Created by rlpowell. Last Modification: Tuesday 19 of December, 2006 22:08:03 GMT by rlpowell.