The Definition of {vo'a}

[09:29] <vensa> selkik: (ta'a) what do you make of the following: {so'o gerku cu te skari fi lo xunre fe lo se skari be lo crino bei lonei}?
[09:30] <selckiku> um well my first thought is "i'm gonna have to look up the places of skari" so uh, brb?
[09:30] <vensa> hehe
[09:30] <vensa> valsi skari
[09:30] <valsi> skari = x1 is/appears to be of color/hue x2 as perceived/seen by x3 under conditions x4.
[09:31] <selckiku> hmm
[09:32] <selckiku> several dogs see a red thing as being the color of a green thing.. now "nei" is doing to my brain what "nei" does
[09:32] <vensa> I was hoping it points to {so'o gerku}. no?
[09:33] <selckiku> o so you can use "lo nei" like "lo go'i"?  i don't know i'd ever thought of that
[09:33] <selckiku> it makes sense
[09:33] <vensa> cool
[09:33] <vensa> I was going for: some dogs have red-green color blindness
[09:33] <selckiku> in that case i think you can as well use "vo'a" tho
[09:33] <vensa> i.e. some dogs see red things in the same way as they see green things
[09:34] <selckiku> yup that made sense to me
[09:34] <vensa> I think {vo'a} would have pointed to the x1 of {lo se skari be lo crino}
[09:35] <vensa> aisa: thank you, I feel it is important and it's quite easy to do, so why not. but I appreciate knowing that it helps someone else too
[09:35] <selckiku> i'm never sure about vo'a, honestly, but i don't think so, because that's not an embedded bridi just a complex sumti
[09:35] <vensa> I think {vo'a} works with embedded sumti too
[09:35] <selckiku> ok.. that does sound like a useful way for it to work
[09:36] <selckiku> honestly there was this huge fight about it years ago & so i put {vo'a} into my mental "don't bother; too contentious" bin :D
[09:36] <vensa> lo xruti be vo'a => the "returner"
[09:36] <vensa> yeah I heard about the fight
[09:37] <selckiku> but "nei" goes to the base bridi of the jufra?
[09:37] <selckiku> you're trying to ask me, but you seem to know more about these cmavo than i do :D
[09:37] <vensa> valsi nei
[09:37] <valsi> nei = pro-bridi: repeats the current bridi.
[09:37] <vensa> dunno
[09:37]  * vensa checking in CLL
[09:38] <selckiku> it would make sense w/how it rhymes with "dei"
[09:38] <vensa> I'm not THAT sure
[09:38] <vensa> hehe
[09:39] <Teapot> My understanding is "la .bainon. goi ko'a since" means "Bainon, also known as ko'a (as of now), is a snake"
[09:40] <selckiku> Teapot, sounds right
[09:40] <Teapot> Okay, awesome. Thanks!
[09:40] <vensa>
[09:40] <vensa> going by ex6.14 it looks to always poin to the outermost bridi
[09:41] <selckiku> Teapot, it assigns ko'a<-->bainon for the foreseeable future, until something else is assigned to ko'a basically... which you basically shouldn't do, you should just pull another pro-sumti out of the bag, there's ko'a ko'e ko'i ko'o ko'u fo'a fo'e fo'i fo'o fo'u
[09:41] <Teapot> Does that assignment hold for other people or just yourself?
[09:41] <selckiku> and you could be like fo'i xi re ci  (fo'i subscript 23)  to make as many as you want, literally an infinite number :D
[09:41] <Teapot> Like, if I assign something to ko'a, can someone else use it?
[09:41] <selckiku> Teapot, yup
[09:42] <Teapot> Okay, cool.
[09:42] <selckiku> it just holds for the present conversation
[09:42] <selckiku> "ko'a" has meant a lot of things in the past
[09:42] <selckiku> right now in this conversation it's bainon
[09:42] <selckiku> ko'a since
[09:42] <Teapot> Yeah
[09:42] <vensa> as for {vo'a} the CLL doesnt seem to discuss its use within {be} -> another point for the BPFK
[09:42] <Teapot> Thanks again
[09:42] <selckiku> who's ko'a, btw?  is there a story about ko'a?
[09:43] <selckiku> vensa, yeah, i'd really like some clarity on {vo'a}!  it seems like maybe other people are more sure about it than i am, maybe i missed the bus on it
[09:43] <Teapot> Bainon is Bino, my pet snake.
[09:43] <selckiku> .ua
[09:43] <selckiku> do kurji ko'a
[09:43] <vensa> The way I understand it, it's always the "shortest"-scope link
[09:44] <vensa> if you want longer scopes you have {nei} {no'a} and {go'i}
[09:44] <Teapot> go'i
[09:44] <Teapot> .ui
[09:44] <selckiku> i don't even know {no'a}
[09:45] <vensa> valsi no'a
[09:45] <valsi> no'a = pro-bridi: repeats the bridi in which this one is embedded.
[09:45] <@Broca> The last chapter of L4B is the best treatment of it so far.
[09:45] <vensa> mi ba klama ca lonu do no'a
[09:45] <vensa> broca: ie
[09:45] <@Broca> The thing is that people disagree about vo'a and what would be the most useful interpretation.
[09:45] <vensa> that chapter seems to suggest that the argument revolves around the ones who didnt want to change the def
[09:45] <vensa> and the new and right def being "short scope"
[09:46] <@Broca> In fact, vo'a is the subject of the only serious academic linguistics paper written about Lojban.
[09:47] <vensa> I dont understand what would be wrong with defining it short-scope?
[09:47] <selckiku> certainly if "lo nei"  "lo se nei" etc are long-scope that seems to serve that role
[09:47] <vensa> .ie
[09:47] <vensa> broca: link to the paper?
[09:48] <@Broca> vensa: because long-scope is useful too. And matrix clauses are special in natural languages (and sometimes in Lojban too)
[09:48] <vensa> broca: but cant you use {lo nei, lo se nei, etc} for those cases?
[09:48] <@Broca> vensa:
[09:48] <vensa> what are "matrix clauses"
[09:49] <@Broca> Top-level bridi, roughly.
[09:50] <vensa> sh*t thats a long articla :)
[09:50] <vensa> broca: ok, so again, why not settle with {lo nei} for "top-level-bridi" references?
[09:51] <@Broca> If so, it would have to be {le nei} for bound terms.
[09:51] <vensa> you mean LE vs LO?
[09:52] <vensa> sure I can live with that :)
[09:52] <vensa> what do you refer to as "bound terms"?
[09:53] <@Broca> Sumti that we already know what entities they refer to.
[09:53] <vensa> oh ok
[09:53] <vensa> so yeah .ie
[09:54] <vensa> so we're all for {vo'a} being short-scope then?
[09:54] <@Broca> Think of the difference between “He killed himself” and “He killed some person(s) that killed some person(s) that killed some person(s) that ...”
[09:54] <vensa> how would those two look in lojban?
[09:54] <@Broca> I don't know. Isn't usage more in favour of long-scope?
[09:54] <vensa> fuck usage
[09:54] <vensa> .u'u
[09:55] <vensa> since when does usage decide
[09:55] <@Broca> {le prenu cu catra le nei} vs. {le prenu cu catra lo nei}
[09:55] <vensa> hmmmm
[09:55] <vensa> cool
[09:55] <vensa> so the latter is a recursion
[09:55] <selckiku> woooooow pierre just said on the list "sumyma'o"
[09:55] <vensa> cuz it always introduces new information?
[09:55] <@Broca> In my understanding, yes. I might be wrong.
[09:55] <selckiku> i feel like i've been waiting for that lujyjvo forever
[09:56] <@Broca> Usage decides, except when usage is wrong. :-)
[09:56] <vensa> valsi sumyma'o
[09:56] <valsi> no results.
[09:56] <vensa> selkik: whats it mean?
[09:56] <selckiku> pro-sumti
[09:56] <selckiku> sumti+cmavo
[09:56] <vensa> broca: I think the decision was that usage shouldnt decidce
[09:56] <selckiku> pro-sumti is such a weird chimerical word
[09:57] <vensa> yeah
[09:57] <vensa> cool
[09:57] <@Broca> I must not have been in on that decision, then.
[09:57] <vensa> well thats another issue

Created by vensa. Last Modification: Saturday 09 of October, 2010 08:07:43 GMT by vensa.