WikiDiscuss

WikiDiscuss


On Sun, 27 Feb 2005 09:52:47 -0800, webmaster@lojban.org
<webmaster@lojban.org> wrote:
> *You must pause in the following cases:
snip
> **Before and after a closing zoi-delimiter word.

Ah! I didn't remember the "after" bit about the closing zoi-delimiter.

> **If the first rafsi is a CVC-rafsi, and the consonant plus what follows is a lujvo, then the CVC-rafsi must have a y-hyphen.

I presume that "the" consonant is the second one (the capitalised one in "cvC")?

mu'o mi'e .filip.
--

Philip Newton <philip.newton@gmail.com>



posts: 1912



> > *You must pause in the following cases:
> snip
> > **Before and after a closing zoi-delimiter word.
>
> Ah! I didn't remember the "after" bit about the closing zoi-delimiter.

The delimiter pauses are not really always required by the morphology.
As long as the delimiters are not part of a non-lojban-word the morphology
will detect them. For example, {zoizoibrOdazoivAlsi} will be parsed
as {zoi zoi broda zoi valsi}. All the morphology requires is that the
delimiters don't mix with a truly non-lojban stuff. For example
{zoizoibrokdazoi} is a single non-lojban word, because it can't be
fully separated into Lojban words. Requiring pauses after the opening
delimiter and before and after the closing delimiter is overkill,
in particular the one after the closing delimiter is never really
needed.

> > **If the first rafsi is a CVC-rafsi, and the consonant plus what follows is
> a lujvo, then the CVC-rafsi must have a y-hyphen.
>
> I presume that "the" consonant is the second one (the capitalised one in
> "cvC")?

Yes, fixed.

mu'o mi'e xorxes





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posts: 14214

On Sun, Feb 27, 2005 at 07:29:06PM +0100, Philip Newton wrote:
> On Sun, 27 Feb 2005 09:52:47 -0800, webmaster@lojban.org
> <webmaster@lojban.org> wrote:
> > *You must pause in the following cases:
> snip
> > **Before and after a closing zoi-delimiter word.
>
> Ah! I didn't remember the "after" bit about the closing
> zoi-delimiter.

I don't either. I think he means after the opening delimiter and
before the closing one.

-Robin


posts: 1912


> On Sun, Feb 27, 2005 at 07:29:06PM +0100, Philip Newton wrote:
> > On Sun, 27 Feb 2005 09:52:47 -0800, webmaster@lojban.org
> > <webmaster@lojban.org> wrote:
> > > *You must pause in the following cases:
> > snip
> > > **Before and after a closing zoi-delimiter word.
> >
> > Ah! I didn't remember the "after" bit about the closing
> > zoi-delimiter.
>
> I don't either. I think he means after the opening delimiter and
> before the closing one.

No, I really meant it as I wrote it. I had the rule for the opening
delimiter separately. That is what I thought was the outcome of the
discussion that included this post:

<http://www.lojban.org/tiki/tiki-view_forum_thread.php?comments_parentId=3932&forumId=1&highlight=togo>

but I didn't manage to find the rest of the thread once I found
that post, so I can't check if I'm remembering correctly. You
said something that you were going to modify the zoi delimiters
so that they dealt with spaces differently.

In any case, I have changed the rule now, because zoi delimiters
don't really pertain to the morphology. The only rule that matters
for the morphology with respect to this is:

"You must pause before and after any non-lojban-word."

If you only quote lojban words with zoi, there need not be
any pause for the parser to divide the words properly.

mu'o mi'e xorxes







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posts: 14214

On Sun, Feb 27, 2005 at 05:48:00PM -0800, Jorge Llamb?as wrote:
> No, I really meant it as I wrote it. I had the rule for the
> opening delimiter separately. That is what I thought was the
> outcome of the discussion that included this post:
>
> <http://www.lojban.org/tiki/tiki-view_forum_thread.php?comments_parentId=3932&forumId=1&highlight=togo>
>
> but I didn't manage to find the rest of the thread once I found
> that post, so I can't check if I'm remembering correctly.

> You said something that you were going to modify the zoi
> delimiters so that they dealt with spaces differently.

Already done. They require a pause/space after the opening
delimiter and before the closing delimiter.

The forums appear to be a bit upset, but see:

http://www.lojban.org/tiki/tiki-view_forum_thread.php?forumId=1&comments_parentId=3938&comments_maxComments=1&comments_style=commentStyle_plain

(Threaded mode isn't working; I'll go fix this soon)

> In any case, I have changed the rule now, because zoi delimiters
> don't really pertain to the morphology.

Agreed.

-Robin


posts: 14214

On Sun, Feb 27, 2005 at 06:10:12PM -0800, Robin Lee Powell wrote:
> On Sun, Feb 27, 2005 at 05:48:00PM -0800, Jorge Llamb?as wrote:
> > No, I really meant it as I wrote it. I had the rule for the
> > opening delimiter separately. That is what I thought was the
> > outcome of the discussion that included this post:
> >
> > <http://www.lojban.org/tiki/tiki-view_forum_thread.php?comments_parentId=3932&forumId=1&highlight=togo>
> >
> > but I didn't manage to find the rest of the thread once I found
> > that post, so I can't check if I'm remembering correctly.
>
> > You said something that you were going to modify the zoi
> > delimiters so that they dealt with spaces differently.
>
> Already done. They require a pause/space after the opening
> delimiter and before the closing delimiter.
>
> The forums appear to be a bit upset, but see:
>
> http://www.lojban.org/tiki/tiki-view_forum_thread.php?forumId=1&comments_parentId=3938&comments_maxComments=1&comments_style=commentStyle_plain
>
> (Threaded mode isn't working; I'll go fix this soon)

  • DAMN* that was a pain in the ass. :-(


Fixed.

Full thread is at

http://www.lojban.org/tiki/tiki-view_forum_thread.php?comments_parentId=3915&topics_threshold=0&topics_offset=33&topics_sort_mode=commentDate_desc&topics_find=&forumId=1

It's three pages long. For xorxes' agreeing with me on the zoi
delimiter issue, search for "Yes, I suppose it's not that hard,".

-Robin



posts: 1912


> On Sun, Feb 27, 2005 at 06:10:12PM -0800, Robin Lee Powell wrote:
> > On Sun, Feb 27, 2005 at 05:48:00PM -0800, Jorge Llamb?as wrote:
> > > You said something that you were going to modify the zoi
> > > delimiters so that they dealt with spaces differently.
> >
> > Already done. They require a pause/space after the opening
> > delimiter and before the closing delimiter.

Are you sure? I don't see any changes.

I think we should go either with the morphological break (as I think
it is set up now) so that neither {to} nor {go} can be used to quote
"Togo", or require pauses both sides of the closing delimiter, so that
both {to} and {go} could be used. The middle-of-the-road rule that
requires a pause only before the final delimiter but not after it
means you can use {go} but not {to} as delimiters to quote "Togo".
That doesn't seem very reasonable.

mu'o mi'e xorxes




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posts: 1912


> On Sun, Feb 27, 2005 at 06:10:12PM -0800, Robin Lee Powell wrote:
> > On Sun, Feb 27, 2005 at 05:48:00PM -0800, Jorge Llamb?as wrote:
> > > You said something that you were going to modify the zoi
> > > delimiters so that they dealt with spaces differently.
> >
> > Already done. They require a pause/space after the opening
> > delimiter and before the closing delimiter.

Are you sure? I don't see any changes.

I think we should go either with the morphological break (as I think
it is set up now) so that neither {to} nor {go} can be used to quote
"Togo", or require pauses both sides of the closing delimiter, so that
both {to} and {go} could be used. The middle-of-the-road rule that
requires a pause only before the final delimiter but not after it
means you can use {go} but not {to} as delimiters to quote "Togo".
That doesn't seem very reasonable.

mu'o mi'e xorxes




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