Lojban In General

Hey, does anyone know how to turn convert an mp3 file into a podcast, i would like to put Radio Free Lojbanistan onto itunes?

Thirderivative,
I'll give you an offlist tutorial on the topic.
-Eppcott

On Fri, Aug 22, 2008 at 11:53 AM, <thirderivative@aol.com> wrote:
> Hey, does anyone know how to turn convert an mp3 file into a podcast, i
> would like to put Radio Free Lojbanistan onto itunes?
>
> Get the MapQuest Toolbar. Directions, Traffic, Gas Prices & More!

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Date: Mon, 3 Aug 2009 12:08:01 -0300
Message-ID: <925d17560908030808w252ad13an30a0831a56c610ef@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: lojban Re: Proverbs and sayings
From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jorge_Llamb=EDas?= <jjllambias@gmail.com>
To: lojban-list@lojban.org
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On Mon, Aug 3, 2009 at 10:38 AM, Luke Bergen<lukeabergen@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> "waking early doesn't cause the sun to rise"?  <-- I think that's what
> you're getting at but I don't think I get it.  Is it an english proverb?

Spanish: "No por mucho madrugar, amanece más temprano", waking up
earlier doesn't make the sun rise earlier.

mu'o mi'e xorxes

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Date: Mon, 3 Aug 2009 10:22:26 -0300
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Subject: lojban Re: Proverbs and sayings
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- lo cevni cu sidju lo sidju be lo sevzi

- lo nu lirmau cikybi'o na rinka lo nu lirmau soltolcanci

mu'o mi'e xorxes

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Date: Mon, 3 Aug 2009 12:58:22 -0400
Message-ID: <96f789a60908030958s5cb26484ob1961a9b20befc84@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: lojban Experiments in Sapir Whorf
From: Michael Turniansky <mturniansky@gmail.com>
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New experiments in Sapir Whorf, mentioined in Newsweek --
http://wwwords.org/?SWHE --gejyspa
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Date: Mon, 10 Aug 2009 10:40:43 -0400
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Subject: lojban Re: webserver hosed?
From: Luke Bergen <lukeabergen@gmail.com>
To: lojban-list@lojban.org
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Oh, in that case http://lmgtfy.com/?q=cloudfront

On Mon, Aug 10, 2009 at 6:01 AM, Colin Wright <
colin.wright@denbridgemarine.com> wrote:

> Pierre,
>
> > Timo Paulssen wrote:
> >> lojban.org is hosted on amazon cloudfront and we
> >> are currently experiencing cpu steal, that's why
> >> the website is so slow - sometimes so slow that
> >> it won't work at all
> >
> > What's cloudfront? What's CPU steal?
>
> No one has answered seriously or sensibly, because both
> questions are easily answered by Google.
>
>
> --
> Denbridge Marine Limited may monitor email traffic data and the
> content of email for the purposes of security and staff training.
>
> Denbridge Marine Limited.
> Registered in England and Wales at DSG, 43 Castle St, Liverpool. L2 9TL.
> Registered Number 4850477
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list-request@lojban.org
> with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if
> you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help.
>
>

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Oh, in that case <a href=3D"http://lmgtfy.com/?q=3Dcloudfront">http://lmgtf=

y.com/?q=3Dcloudfront</a><br clear=3D"all"><br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quot=

e">On Mon, Aug 10, 2009 at 6:01 AM, Colin Wright <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a h=
ref=3D"mailto:colin.wright@denbridgemarine.com">colin.wright@denbridgemarin=
e.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br>

<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, = 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">Pierre,<br> <div class=3D"im"><br> &gt; Timo Paulssen wrote:<br>

&gt;&gt; <a href=3D"http://lojban.org" target=3D"_blank">lojban.org</a> is =
hosted on amazon cloudfront and we<br>
&gt;&gt; are currently experiencing cpu steal, that&#39;s why<br>
&gt;&gt; the website is so slow - sometimes so slow that<br>

</div>&gt;&gt; it won&#39;t work at all <br> <div class=3D"im">&gt;<br> &gt; What&#39;s cloudfront? What&#39;s CPU steal?<br> <br> </div>No one has answered seriously or sensibly, because both<br> questions are easily answered by Google.<br> <font color=3D"#888888"><br> <br> --<br> Denbridge Marine Limited may monitor email traffic data and the<br> content of email for the purposes of security and staff training.<br> <br> Denbridge Marine Limited.<br> Registered in England and Wales at DSG, 43 Castle St, Liverpool. L2 9TL.<br=

>
Registered Number 4850477<br>

</font><div><div></div><div class=3D"h5"><br> <br>

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2/" target=3D"_blank">http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/</a>, or if<br>
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g">secretary@lojban.org</a> for help.<br>
<br>

</div></div></blockquote></div><br>

0016364eca22119d2e0470ca920c

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From: Danny Piccirillo <danny.piccirillo@gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 4 Sep 2009 17:23:25 -0400
Message-ID: <cc3196b0909041423l17e44a25w4bbdb74f9eaaac75@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: lojban Re: JOB: Create a language for a TV show - deadlines ASAP
To: lojban-list@lojban.org
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sounds like an awesome opportunity-- someone snatch this up!

On Fri, Sep 4, 2009 at 17:11, Language Creation Society <lcs@conlang.org>wr=
ote:

> Please forward this email to any relevant lists & people.
>
> Contact: jobs@conlang.org / 1 (918) 9-CONLANG
>
> Please read the full posting at http://conlang.org/jobs before contacting
> us.
>
> To get notified of similar opportunities in the future, and other LCS
> news, sign up at
> http://lists.conlang.org/listinfo.cgi/news-conlang.org
>
>
> JOB SUMMARY
>
> The Language Creation Society (LCS) has been hired by a major TV
> studio to coordinate the creation of a new artistic language, and
> translation of dialogue into it, for an upcoming TV series. We are
> seeking a qualified individual to fulfill this job.
>
> The language takes place within a specified fantasy-genre culture,
> backstory, etc; you will be given all necessary background
> information, including extant vocabulary, cultural description, etc.
>
> Some dialogue will be broadly specified (just outlining the events in
> a scene), and you will need to fill in the scene as appropriate; some
> will be specific lines to translate or have other needs.
>
> Occasionally there may be song lyrics to create and/or translate as
> well; if so, the studio will provide music (though you may supply your
> own for consideration).
>
> Dialogue will vary broadly - including simple conversation, commands,
> banter, jokes, doggerel, exclamations, etc. - and will include both
> high and low register speech. The show is strongly adult-themed, and
> includes explicit sex and violence, so dialogue in this conlang will
> require very explicit crude language and creative invective, as well
> as mundane, romantic, poetic, militaristic, and formal speech.
>
>
> Due to the studio's concerns about PR, we are not at liberty to give
> details of what the project is until you've signed a non-disclosure
> agreement with the LCS. We'd appreciate if you don't speculate
> publicly about who or what the project is with, even if you are not an
> applicant; maintaining good relations with the studio, and letting
> them control PR, is important to having more such work in the future.
>
> If selected as a finalist, you will need to sign a blanket copyright
> assignment / consulting option agreement. This is a work for hire, and
> *all* rights to the conlang will be owned by the studio (except that
> you will have the right, once it's published, to say that you made
> it). Of course, your work will not be used unless you are paid.
>
>
> Without discussing the particulars that are confidential, here's what
> the job entails.
>
> This language must:
> a) aesthetically fit the culture it pertains to and the producers'
> creative vision thereof
> b) include certain pre-specified vocabulary
> c) include guidelines for phonetically correct "

crowd babble" and
> "accented English" (including e.g. syntax errors, false cognates, etc)
> d) include recordings and pronunciation guides for all translated
> dialogue, suitable for easy use by actors
>
> This is a spoken only language; no orthography is required.
>
> There is a considerable amount of leeway for inventiveness within
> these basic requirements, and the successful applicant will exercise
> it. Many of the dialogue requirements are broadly specified, and may
> require some elaboration of their culture, worldview, metaphors,
> humor, etc (while respecting creative decisions made by the
> producers). And of course there are many decisions to be made
> regarding morphosyntax, unusual features, derivations, metaphors,
> vocabulary structure, conversational conventions, etc.
>
>
> The initial contract is for one script only, containing a few dozen
> lines of dialogue to be created and translated. The studio will have
> the option (to which you must commit upfront) to continue the creation
> of this language for the rest of the series, on a per-episode basis.
>
> It is possible that you will need to participate in phone calls, or
> fly out to the set, to assist as a dialogue coach or do last-minute
> work. A reasonable amount of this is included in your fee; however,
> you are not expected to incur any unusual expenses (such as travel
> costs) and if that comes up we will take care of it ad hoc.
>
> Each episode is 1 hour long. If the option is exercised, there will be
> approximately 10-12 episodes per year, some with more of this conlang
> in it and some not; you are only hired on a per episode, as needed
> basis. You will have approximately 3-4 weeks' lead time per episode
> OTHER than the first, though this is not guaranteed and subject to the
> whims of TV production.
>
> Good luck, and fiat lingua!
>
>
>
> COMPENSATION
>
> * having your work potentially seen by millions of viewers
> * screen credit on all episodes that include dialogue in this conlang
> as the creator thereof
> * $1250 for the first script and $850 for every subsequent script (if
> optioned)
> * ad hoc if needed for unusual extras (e.g. on-site visits for
> dialogue coaching)
> * right of first refusal on any further conlanging work under the LCS
> for the same show
> * fame and acclaim (certainly within our community, potentially in major
> media)
>
>
>
> DEADLINES
>
> Expression of interest and NDA signing: ASAP
> First round submission: 23:59 PST, Sept. 26th
> Final proposal submission: 23:59 PST, Oct. 17th
>
> Applicants are strongly encouraged to communicate with us before these
> deadlines to get feedback, seek more information, ensure their formal
> applications are in order, etc.
>
> Failure to meet any deadline will result in immediate
> disqualification. TV is not a deadline-flexible medium, and ability to
> cope with that is a necessary part of the job.
>
> Deadlines (and other terms) are subject to change; any changes will be
> announced by email to applicants who have submitted NDAs.
>
>
>
> ASSISTANT REVIEWERS
>
> The LCS will recruit a handful of our respected conlanger and/or
> linguist colleagues to help review applications.
>
> Reviewers are volunteers (just like us), and their opinions are only
> advisory, not votes. Reviewers may not be submitting applications
> themselves, must disclose any ties to any applicants, must be quickly
> available near the deadline dates above, and must sign a
> non-disclosure agreement. Reviewers will be given all the same
> information as finalists get.
>
> Reviewers will have already published their own artistic language(s),
> and be known and respected by the conlanging community.
>
> Potential reviewers will be solicited directly by the LCS; there is no
> application.
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list-request@lojban.or=
g
> with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if
> you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help.
>
>

--=20
=E2=98=AE=E2=99=A5=E2=92=B6 - http://www.google.com/profiles/danny.picciril=
lo

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sounds like an awesome opportunity-- someone snatch this up!=C2=A0<br><br><=

div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Fri, Sep 4, 2009 at 17:11, Language Creation S=
ociety <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:lcs@conlang.org">lcs@conlang=
.org</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br>

<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=

x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;">Please forward this email to any relevant l=
ists &amp; people.<br>
<br>
Contact: <a href=3D"mailto:jobs@conlang.org">jobs@conlang.org</a> / 1 (918)=
9-CONLANG<br>
<br>
Please read the full posting at <a href=3D"http://conlang.org/jobs" target=
=3D"_blank">http://conlang.org/jobs</a> before contacting us.<br>
<br>
To get notified of similar opportunities in the future, and other LCS<br>
news, sign up at<br>
<a href=3D"http://lists.conlang.org/listinfo.cgi/news-conlang.org" target=
=3D"_blank">http://lists.conlang.org/listinfo.cgi/news-conlang.org</a><br>
<br>
<br>
JOB SUMMARY<br>
<br>
The Language Creation Society (LCS) has been hired by a major TV<br>
studio to coordinate the creation of a new artistic language, and<br>
translation of dialogue into it, for an upcoming TV series. We are<br>
seeking a qualified individual to fulfill this job.<br>
<br>
The language takes place within a specified fantasy-genre culture,<br>
backstory, etc; you will be given all necessary background<br>
information, including extant vocabulary, cultural description, etc.<br>
<br>
Some dialogue will be broadly specified (just outlining the events in<br>
a scene), and you will need to fill in the scene as appropriate; some<br>
will be specific lines to translate or have other needs.<br>
<br>
Occasionally there may be song lyrics to create and/or translate as<br>
well; if so, the studio will provide music (though you may supply your<br>
own for consideration).<br>
<br>
Dialogue will vary broadly - including simple conversation, commands,<br>
banter, jokes, doggerel, exclamations, etc. - and will include both<br>
high and low register speech. The show is strongly adult-themed, and<br>
includes explicit sex and violence, so dialogue in this conlang will<br>
require very explicit crude language and creative invective, as well<br>
as mundane, romantic, poetic, militaristic, and formal speech.<br>
<br>
<br>
Due to the studio&#39;s concerns about PR, we are not at liberty to give<br=
>
details of what the project is until you&#39;ve signed a non-disclosure<br>
agreement with the LCS. We&#39;d appreciate if you don&#39;t speculate<br>
publicly about who or what the project is with, even if you are not an<br>
applicant; maintaining good relations with the studio, and letting<br>
them control PR, is important to having more such work in the future.<br>
<br>
If selected as a finalist, you will need to sign a blanket copyright<br>
assignment / consulting option agreement. This is a work for hire, and<br>

• all* rights to the conlang will be owned by the studio (except that<br>

you will have the right, once it&#39;s published, to say that you made<br> it). Of course, your work will not be used unless you are paid.<br> <br> <br>

Without discussing the particulars that are confidential, here&#39;s what<b=
r>
the job entails.<br>
<br>
This language must:<br>
a) aesthetically fit the culture it pertains to and the producers&#39;<br>
creative vision thereof<br>
b) include certain pre-specified vocabulary<br>
c) include guidelines for phonetically correct &quot;crowd babble&quot; and=
<br>
&quot;accented English&quot; (including e.g. syntax errors, false cognates,=
etc)<br>
d) include recordings and pronunciation guides for all translated<br>
dialogue, suitable for easy use by actors<br>
<br>
This is a spoken only language; no orthography is required.<br>
<br>
There is a considerable amount of leeway for inventiveness within<br>
these basic requirements, and the successful applicant will exercise<br>
it. Many of the dialogue requirements are broadly specified, and may<br>
require some elaboration of their culture, worldview, metaphors,<br>
humor, etc (while respecting creative decisions made by the<br>
producers). And of course there are many decisions to be made<br>
regarding morphosyntax, unusual features, derivations, metaphors,<br>
vocabulary structure, conversational conventions, etc.<br>
<br>
<br>
The initial contract is for one script only, containing a few dozen<br>
lines of dialogue to be created and translated. The studio will have<br>
the option (to which you must commit upfront) to continue the creation<br>
of this language for the rest of the series, on a per-episode basis.<br>
<br>
It is possible that you will need to participate in phone calls, or<br>
fly out to the set, to assist as a dialogue coach or do last-minute<br>
work. A reasonable amount of this is included in your fee; however,<br>
you are not expected to incur any unusual expenses (such as travel<br>
costs) and if that comes up we will take care of it ad hoc.<br>
<br>
Each episode is 1 hour long. If the option is exercised, there will be<br>
approximately 10-12 episodes per year, some with more of this conlang<br>
in it and some not; you are only hired on a per episode, as needed<br>
basis. You will have approximately 3-4 weeks&#39; lead time per episode<br>
OTHER than the first, though this is not guaranteed and subject to the<br>
whims of TV production.<br>
<br>
Good luck, and fiat lingua!<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
COMPENSATION<br>
<br>

• having your work potentially seen by millions of viewers<br>
• screen credit on all episodes that include dialogue in this conlang<br>

as the creator thereof<br>

• $1250 for the first script and $850 for every subsequent script (if optio=

ned)<br>

• ad hoc if needed for unusual extras (e.g. on-site visits for<br>

dialogue coaching)<br>

• right of first refusal on any further conlanging work under the LCS<br>

for the same show<br>

• fame and acclaim (certainly within our community, potentially in major me=

dia)<br> <br> <br> <br> DEADLINES<br> <br> Expression of interest and NDA signing: ASAP<br> First round submission: 23:59 PST, Sept. 26th<br> Final proposal submission: 23:59 PST, Oct. 17th<br> <br> Applicants are strongly encouraged to communicate with us before these<br> deadlines to get feedback, seek more information, ensure their formal<br> applications are in order, etc.<br> <br> Failure to meet any deadline will result in immediate<br> disqualification. TV is not a deadline-flexible medium, and ability to<br> cope with that is a necessary part of the job.<br> <br> Deadlines (and other terms) are subject to change; any changes will be<br> announced by email to applicants who have submitted NDAs.<br> <br> <br> <br> ASSISTANT REVIEWERS<br> <br> The LCS will recruit a handful of our respected conlanger and/or<br> linguist colleagues to help review applications.<br> <br> Reviewers are volunteers (just like us), and their opinions are only<br> advisory, not votes. Reviewers may not be submitting applications<br> themselves, must disclose any ties to any applicants, must be quickly<br> available near the deadline dates above, and must sign a<br> non-disclosure agreement. Reviewers will be given all the same<br> information as finalists get.<br> <br> Reviewers will have already published their own artistic language(s),<br> and be known and respected by the conlanging community.<br> <br> Potential reviewers will be solicited directly by the LCS; there is no<br> application.<br> <br> <br>

To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to <a href=3D"mailto:lojban-list-r=
equest@lojban.org">lojban-list-request@lojban.org</a><br>
with the subject unsubscribe, or go to <a href=3D"http://www.lojban.org/lsg=
2/" target=3D"_blank">http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/</a>, or if<br>
you&#39;re really stuck, send mail to <a href=3D"mailto:secretary@lojban.or=
g">secretary@lojban.org</a> for help.<br>
<br>

</blockquote></div><br><br clear=3D"all"><br>-- <br>=E2=98=AE=E2=99=A5=E2=

=92=B6 - <a href=3D"http://www.google.com/profiles/danny.piccirillo">http:/=
/www.google.com/profiles/danny.piccirillo</a><br>

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Message-ID: <9ada8ecd0909051425t78a046f3kddef2869e5c8e7a2@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: lojban xorlo
From: Squark Rabinovich <top.squark@gmail.com>
To: lojban-beginners <lojban-beginners@lojban.org>, lojban-list@chain.digitalkingdom.org
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Hello everyone.
I have recently got acquainted with the (virtually accepted, AFAIK) xorlo
proposal:

http://www.lojban.org/tiki/tiki-index.php?page=How%20to%20use%20xorlo
<http://www.lojban.org/tiki/tiki-index.php?page=How%20to%20use%20xorlo>
http://www.lojban.org/tiki/BPFK+Section:+gadri

There are several things I don't understand about it. Foremost, we now have
that

- Any term without an explicit outer quantifier is a *constant*, i.e. not
a quantified term. This means that it *refers* to one or more
individuals, and changing the order in which the constant term appears with
respect to a negation or with respect to a quantified term will not change
the meaning of the sentence. A constant is something that always keeps the
same referent or referents. For example {lo broda} always refers to brodas.
In {mu da poi broda zo'u da brode}, "da" is a quantified variable, bound by
the quantifier *mu*, and it takes its values from the set of all things
that broda. (Within the scope of the quantifier, it acts as a constant term,
but it cannot escape as a constant out of that scope.) Any term with a
quantifier in front takes values from the set of things over which the
quantifier runs. When an unquantified term is quantified, the quantifier
runs over the referents of the unquantified term.

I don't quite understand how can all such terms be constants. For instance,
consider the *jufra*

• lo mu nanmu cu tavla lo ci ninmu*

Under xorlo, *lo mu nanmu* refers to some 5 men/boys and *lo ci ninmu* refers
to some 3 women/girls. However, which men speak to which men? Before xorlo,
the default outer quantifier of *lo* was *su'o *thus the above would implied
that *at least one* of the men talks to *at least one* of the women. Of
course, before xorlo that would also mean that only 5 men exist in the
universe and only 3 women. Similarly, before xorlo

• le mu nanmu cu tavla le ci ninmu*

meant that *all* of the men talk to *all* of the women, since the default
outer quantifier of *le* was *ro*. What happens under xorlo? Do both phrases
mean "all"? "at least one"? Or is it context defendant, and the phrases
could mean anything? The later possibility suggests that the weakest
interpretation is safest, namely the interpretation with "at least one".

In other words, since we're doing about 5 men and 3 women rather than 1 man
and 1 woman, it seems that a quantifier is logically necessary, and such a
term cannot be a "constant".

Secondly, what is meant by *lo* becoming "generic"? What is the difference
from the earlier convention?

Many thx for any help!

Best regards,
Squark

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<div dir=3D"ltr">Hello everyone.<div><br></div><div>I have recently got=A0a= cquainted=A0with the (virtually accepted, AFAIK) xorlo proposal:</div><div>= <br></div><div><a href=3D"http://www.lojban.org/tiki/tiki-index.php?page=3D=

How%20to%20use%20xorlo">http://www.lojban.org/tiki/tiki-index.php?page=3DHo=

w%20to%20use%20xorlo</a></div> <div><a href=3D"http://www.lojban.org/tiki/tiki-index.php?page=3DHow%20to%2=

0use%20xorlo"></a><a href=3D"http://www.lojban.org/tiki/BPFK+Section:+gadri=

">http://www.lojban.org/tiki/BPFK+Section:+gadri</a></div><div><br></div><d=

iv>
There are several things I don&#39;t understand about it. Foremost, we now =

have that=A0</div><span class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"font-family: Ve= rdana; font-size: 12px; line-height: 16px; "><ul><li>Any term without an ex=

plicit outer quantifier is a=A0<strong>constant</strong>, i.e. not a quanti=
fied term. This means that it=A0<strong>refers</strong>=A0to one or more in=
dividuals, and changing the order in which the constant term appears with r=
espect to a negation or with respect to a quantified term will not change t=
he meaning of the sentence. A constant is something that always keeps the s=
ame referent or referents. For example {lo broda} always refers to brodas. =
In {mu da poi broda zo&#39;u da brode}, &quot;da&quot; is a quantified vari=
able, bound by the quantifier=A0<em>mu</em>, and it takes its values from t=
he set of all things that broda. (Within the scope of the quantifier, it ac=
ts as a constant term, but it cannot escape as a constant out of that scope=
.) Any term with a quantifier in front takes values from the set of things =
over which the quantifier runs. When an unquantified term is quantified, th=

e quantifier runs over the referents of the unquantified term.</li> </ul><div>I don&#39;t quite understand how can all such terms be constants.= For instance, consider the <i>jufra</i></div><div><br></div><div><i>lo mu = nanmu cu tavla lo ci ninmu</i></div><div><i><br></i></div><div>Under xorlo,=

<i>lo mu nanmu</i>=A0refers to some 5 men/boys and <i>lo ci ninmu</i>=A0re=
fers to some 3 women/girls. However, which men speak to which men? Before x=
orlo, the default outer quantifier of <i>lo</i>=A0was <i>su&#39;o=A0</i>thu=
s the above would implied that <b>at least one</b> of the men talks to <b>a=
t least one</b> of the women. Of course, before xorlo that would also mean =
that only 5 men exist in the universe and only 3 women.=A0Similarly, before=

xorlo</div> <div><br></div><div><i>le mu nanmu cu tavla le ci ninmu</i></div><div><i><b= r></i></div><div>meant that <b>all</b>=A0of the men talk to <b>all</b>=A0of=

the women, since the default outer quantifier of <i>le</i>=A0was <i>ro</i>=
. What happens under xorlo? Do both phrases mean &quot;all&quot;? &quot;at =
least one&quot;? Or is it context=A0defendant, and the phrases could mean a=
nything? The later possibility suggests that the weakest interpretation is =

safest, namely the interpretation with &quot;at least one&quot;.</div> <div><br></div><div>In other words, since we&#39;re doing about 5 men and 3=

women rather than 1 man and 1 woman, it seems that a quantifier is logical=

ly=A0necessary, and such a term cannot be a &quot;constant&quot;.</div><div=

>

<br></div><div>Secondly, what is meant by <i>lo</i>=A0becoming &quot;generi= c&quot;? What is the difference from the earlier convention?</div><div><br>= </div><div>Many thx for any help!</div><div><br></div><div>Best regards,</d=

iv>

<div>=A0Squark</div><ul><div><br></div></ul><ul></ul></span></div>

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Date: Mon, 7 Sep 2009 00:26:03 +0300
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Subject: lojban Re: xorlo
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Oops, I forgot *cu* in all of my examples. I fixed them below.

On Mon, Sep 7, 2009 at 12:01 AM, Squark Rabinovich <top.squark@gmail.com>wr=
ote:

> Btw, what happened to *lo'e* and *le'e* ? They are not mentioned in the
> pages about xorlo. Were they scrapped?
> Anyway, since nobody gave a complete answer about xorlo, I'll take a shot
> at guessing how it should work.
>
> Lets start with *lo* . The syntax is
>
> optional outer quantifier *lo* optional inner quantifier *broda*
> *
> *
> *lo broda means "at least one mass of broda". For example, lo nanmu cu br=
evi
> le pipno means "at least one group of men carries the piano(s)". The size
> of the mass is unknown, in particular it can consist of a single object i=
n
> which case it is in fact an individual. Also, for continuous things like
> mudri or rokci the size might be meaningless i.e. not representable as a
> natural number.*
>
> *lo* *n* *broda* where *n* is a quantifier means "at least one mass of *
> broda* out of a mass of *n* *broda".* Supposedly, the later mass of *n* *
> broda* is not just a random collection of *broda* but a group unified by
> something. For example, *lo mu nanmu cu brevi le pipno means "at least on=
e
> group of men out of a group of 5 men carries the piano(s)". The size of t=
he
> mass is still unknown, but it can be at most n.*
>
> *m* *lo broda* where *m* is a quantifier means "*m *individual *broda*".
> For example, *su'o ci lo nanmu cu brevi le pipno means "3 men carry the
> piano(s) (individually), and possibly some other individual men and/or
> groups of men do this as well". On the other hand ci lo nanmu cu brevi le
> pipno means "3 men carry the piano(s) (individually) and no other man or
> group of men does this".*
>
> *m* *lo n broda where n and m are quantifier means "m individual broda* o=
ut
> of a mass of *n **broda*". For example, *ci le mu nanmu cu brevi le pipno=
means
> "3 men out of a group of 5 men carry the piano(s) (individually) and no
> other man or group of men within that group of 5 men does this".*
>
> *loi* : The syntax is optional outer quantifier *pi* optional
> fractional outer quantifier *loi* optional inner quantifier *broda*
> *
> *
> * loi broda is the same as lo broda . loi n broda is the same as lo n bro=
da
> .
>
> m loi broda where m is a quantifier means "m masses of broda". For
> example, su'o ci loi nanmu cu brevi le pipno means "3 groups of men carry
> the piano(s), and possibly some other individual men and/or groups of men=
do
> this as well". On the other hand ci loi nanmu cu brevi le pipno means "3
> groups of men carry the piano(s) and no other man or group of men does
> this". The size of the masses is unknown. In particular any/all of the
> masses can be of size 1 and thus in effect individuals. The size might be
> meaningless for continuous entities.
> Another example is lu'i ci loi nanmu cu simxu lo nu damba which means
> "three groups of men fight against each other", where "each other" means
> between the groups, not within them.
>
> m loi n broda where n and m are quantifier means "m masses of broda out o=
f
> a mass of n broda". For example, ci loi mu no nanmu cu brevi le pipno mea=
ns
> "3 groups of men which are subgroups of a group of 50 men carry the
> piano(s), and possibly some other individual men and/or groups of men do
> this as well". On the other hand ci loi nanmu cu brevi le pipno means "3
> groups of men carry the piano(s) and no other man or group of men within
> that group of 50 men does this". The size of the masses is unknown. In
> particular any/all of the masses can be of size 1 and thus in effect
> individuals. The size might be meaningless for continuous entities.
>
> Adding a fractional outer quantifier fixes the total size of the masses
> involved. For example ci pi vo loi mu no nanmu cu brevi le pipno means th=
e
> same as above, with the added information that the 3 groups of men togeth=
er
> consist 0.4 of the total group i.e. 50 x 0.4 =3D 20 men.
>
> lo'i : The syntax is optional outer quantifier pi optional fractional
> outer quantifier lo'i optional inner quantifier broda
>
> lo'i broda means "at least one mass of sets of broda"
>
> lo'i n broda means "at least one mass of subsets of a set of n broda"
>
> m lo'i broda means "m sets of broda"
>
> m lo'i n broda means "m subsets of a set of n broda"
>
> Adding a fractional outer quantifier fixes the size of union of the sets
> involved.
>
> le lei le'i work in the same way except that a priori, I don't consider
> all broda but a specific set of things-I-call-broda. The inner quantifier
> specifies the size of this set.
> la lai la'i work in the same way except that they refer to things named
> broda . The inner quantifier is merely a part of the name.
>
> It is also an interesting question how sumti-based descriptions (which ar=
e
> mentioned in the xamoi ckupau of the "reference grammar") work in xorlo.
> *
>
> 2009/9/6 Jorge Llamb=EDas <jjllambias@gmail.com>
>
> On Sat, Sep 5, 2009 at 6:25 PM, Squark Rabinovich<top.squark@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> >
>> > In other words, since we're doing about 5 men and 3 women rather than =
1
>> man
>> > and 1 woman, it seems that a quantifier is logically necessary, and su=
ch
>> a
>> > term cannot be a "constant".
>>
>> This might help understand how a term can have plural reference:
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plural_quantification
>>
>> mu'o mi'e xorxes
>>
>>
>> To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to
>> lojban-list-request@lojban.org
>> with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or i=
f
>> you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help.
>>
>>
>

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<div dir=3D"ltr">Oops, I forgot <i>cu</i>=A0in all of my examples. I fixed = them below.<br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Mon, Sep 7, 2009 at 12:01 =

AM, Squark Rabinovich <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:top.squark@gm=
ail.com">top.squark@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br>

<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p= x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;"><div dir=3D"ltr">Btw, what happened to <i>l=

o&#39;e</i>=A0and <i>le&#39;e</i>=A0? They are not mentioned in the pages a=

bout xorlo. Were they scrapped?<div> <br></div><div>Anyway, since nobody gave a complete answer about xorlo, I&#= 39;ll take a shot at guessing how it should work.</div> <div><br></div><div>Lets start with <i>lo</i>=A0. The syntax is</div><div><= br></div><div>optional outer quantifier <i>lo</i>=A0optional inner quant=

ifier <i>broda</i></div><div><i><br></i></div><div><i>lo broda<span style=

=3D"font-style:normal">=A0means &quot;at least one mass of </span>broda<spa=
n style=3D"font-style:normal">&quot;.=A0For example, <i>lo nanmu=A0<span cl=
ass=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"font-style: normal; "><i>cu</i>=A0<i><spa=
n style=3D"font-style:normal"><i>brevi le pipno</i>=A0means &quot;at least =
one group of men carries the piano(s)&quot;. The size of the mass is unknow=
n, in particular it can consist of a single object in which case it is in f=
act an individual. Also, for continuous things like </span>mudri</i>=A0or <=
i>rokci</i>=A0the size might be meaningless i.e. not representable as a nat=

ural number.</span></i></span></i></div>

<div><br></div><div><i>lo</i>=A0<b>n</b>=A0<i>broda</i>=A0where <b>n</b>=A0=

is a quantifier means &quot;at least one mass of <i>broda</i>=A0out of a ma=
ss of <b>n</b>=A0<i>broda&quot;.</i>=A0Supposedly, the later mass of <b>n</=
b>=A0<i>broda</i>=A0is not just a random collection of <i>broda</i>=A0but a=
group unified by something. For example, <i>lo mu nanmu=A0<span class=3D"A=
pple-style-span" style=3D"font-style: normal; "><i>cu</i>=A0<i>brevi le pip=
no</i>=A0means &quot;at least one group of men out of a group of 5 men carr=
ies the piano(s)&quot;. The size of the mass is still unknown, but it can b=

e at most <b>n</b>.</span></i></div>

<div><br></div><div><b>m</b>=A0<i>lo broda</i>=A0where <b>m</b>=A0is a quan=

tifier means &quot;<b>m </b>individual <i>broda</i>&quot;. For example, <i>=
su&#39;o ci lo nanmu=A0<span class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"font-style=
: normal; "><i>cu</i>=A0<i>brevi le pipno</i>=A0means &quot;3 men carry the=
piano(s) (individually), and possibly some other individual men and/or gro=
ups of men do this as well&quot;. On the other hand <i>ci lo nanmu=A0<span =
class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"font-style: normal; "><i>cu</i>=A0<i>br=
evi le pipno</i>=A0means &quot;3 men carry the piano(s) (individually) and =

no other man or group of men does this&quot;.</span></i></span></i></div>

<div><br></div><div><b>m</b>=A0<i>lo=A0<span style=3D"font-style:normal"><b=

>n</b>=A0<span style=3D"font-style:italic">broda</span>=A0where <b>n</b>=A0=
and <b>m</b>=A0are quantifier means &quot;<b>m</b>=A0individual </span>brod=
a</i>=A0out of a mass of <b>n </b><i>broda</i>&quot;. For example, <i>ci le=
mu nanmu=A0<span class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"font-style: normal; "=
><i>cu</i>=A0<i>brevi le pipno</i>=A0means &quot;3 men out of a group of 5 =
men carry the piano(s) (individually) and no other man or group of men <spa=
n style=3D"text-decoration:underline">within that group of 5 men</span>=A0d=

oes this&quot;.</span></i></div>

<div><br></div><div><i>loi</i>=A0: The syntax is optional outer quantifier= <i>pi</i>=A0optional fractional outer quantifier <i>loi</i>=A0optional=

inner quantifier <i>broda</i></div><div><i><br></i></div><div><i><span st= yle=3D"font-style:normal"><div>

<i>loi broda<span style=3D"font-style:normal">=A0is the same as </span>lo b=
roda .=A0<span style=3D"font-style:normal"><i>loi</i>=A0<b>n</b>=A0<i>broda=
</i>=A0is the same as=A0<i>lo</i>=A0<b>n</b>=A0<i>broda .</i></span></i></d=
iv>

<div><br></div><div><b>m</b>=A0<i>loi broda</i>=A0where=A0<b>m</b>=A0is a q=

uantifier means &quot;<b>m=A0</b>masses of=A0<i>broda</i>&quot;. For exampl=
e,=A0<i>su&#39;o ci loi nanmu=A0<span class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"f=
ont-style: normal; "><i>cu</i>=A0<i>brevi le pipno</i>=A0means &quot;3 grou=
ps of men carry the piano(s), and possibly some other individual men and/or=
groups of men do this as well&quot;. On the other hand=A0<i>ci loi nanmu=
=A0<span class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"font-style: normal; "><i>cu</i=
>=A0<i>brevi le pipno</i>=A0means &quot;3 groups of men carry the piano(s) =
and no other man or group of men does this&quot;. The size of the masses is=
unknown. In particular any/all of the masses can be of size 1 and thus in =
effect individuals. The size might be meaningless for continuous=A0entities=

.</span></i></span></i></div> <div>

Another example is <i>lu&#39;i ci loi nanmu=A0<span class=3D"Apple-style-sp=
an" style=3D"font-style: normal; "><i>cu</i>=A0<i>simxu lo nu damba</i>=A0w=
hich means &quot;three groups of men fight against each other&quot;, where =
&quot;each other&quot; means between the groups, not within them.</span></i=

></div> <div><br> </div><div><b><span style=3D"font-weight:normal"><b>m</b>=A0<i>loi=A0<span =

style=3D"font-style:normal"><b>n</b>=A0<span style=3D"font-style:italic">br=
oda</span>=A0where=A0<b>n</b>=A0and=A0<b>m</b>=A0are quantifier means=A0</s=
pan></i>&quot;<b>m=A0</b>masses of=A0<i>broda=A0<span style=3D"font-style:n=
ormal">out of a mass of=A0<b>n=A0</b><i>broda<span style=3D"font-style:norm=
al">&quot;. For example,=A0<i>ci loi mu no nanmu=A0<span class=3D"Apple-sty=
le-span" style=3D"font-style: normal; "><i>cu</i>=A0<i>brevi le pipno</i>=
=A0means &quot;3 groups of men which are subgroups of a group of 50 men car=
ry the piano(s), and possibly some other individual men and/or groups of me=
n do this as well&quot;.=A0On the other hand=A0<i>ci loi nanmu=A0<span clas=
s=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"font-style: normal; "><i>cu</i>=A0<i>brevi =
le pipno</i>=A0means &quot;3 groups of men carry the piano(s) and no other =
man or group of men=A0<span style=3D"text-decoration:underline">within that=
group of 50 men</span>=A0does this&quot;. The size of the masses is unknow=
n. In particular any/all of the masses can be of size 1 and thus in effect =
individuals. The size might be meaningless for continuous=A0entities.</span=

></i></span></i></span></i></span></i></span></b></div>

<div><br></div><div>Adding a fractional outer quantifier fixes the total si=

ze of the masses involved. For example=A0<span style=3D"font-style:italic">=
ci pi vo loi mu no nanmu=A0<span class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"font-s=
tyle: normal; "><i>cu</i>=A0<span style=3D"font-style:italic">brevi le pipn=
o</span>=A0means the same as above, with the added information that the 3 g=
roups of men together consist 0.4 of the total group i.e. 50 x 0.4 =3D 20 m=

en.</span></span></div>

<div><br></div><div><div><i>lo&#39;i</i>=A0: The syntax is optional outer =
quantifier=A0<i>pi</i>=A0optional fractional outer quantifier=A0<i>lo&#3=

9;i</i>=A0optional inner quantifier=A0<i>broda</i></div><div><i><br></i><= /div><div>

<i><span style=3D"font-style:normal"><div><i>lo&#39;i broda<span style=3D"f=

ont-style:normal">=A0means &quot;at least one mass of sets of </span>broda&=

quot;=A0</i></div><div> <i><br></i></div><div><i><span style=3D"font-style:normal"><i>lo&#39;i</i>=

=A0<b>n</b>=A0<i>broda</i>=A0means &quot;at least one mass of subsets of </=

span></i>a set of <b>n</b>=A0<i>broda&quot;</i></div><div> <br></div><div><b>m</b>=A0<i>lo&#39;i broda</i>=A0means &quot;<b>m </b>sets= =A0of=A0<i>broda</i>&quot;</div><div><br></div><div><b><span style=3D"font-=

weight:normal"><b>m</b>=A0<i>lo&#39;i=A0<span style=3D"font-style:normal"><=
b>n</b>=A0<span style=3D"font-style:italic">broda</span>=A0means &quot;<b>m=

</b>subsets of a set of <b>n</b>=A0</span>broda&quot;</i></span></b></div>

<div><br></div><div>Adding a fractional outer quantifier fixes the size of = union of the sets involved.</div><div><br></div><div><div><i>le</i>=A0<i>le=

i le&#39;i </i>work in the same way except that a=A0priori, I don&#39;t con=
sider all <i>broda</i>=A0but a specific set of things-I-call-<i>broda<span =
style=3D"font-style:normal">. T</span><span style=3D"font-style:normal">he =

inner quantifier specifies the size of this set.</span></i></div>

<div><i><span style=3D"font-style:normal"></span>la lai la&#39;i</i>=A0work=

in the same way except that they refer to things <span style=3D"text-decor=
ation:underline">named</span>=A0<i>broda=A0</i>. The inner quantifier is me=

rely a part of the name.</div>

<div><br></div><div>It is also an interesting question how <i>sumti</i>-bas=

ed descriptions (which are mentioned in the <i>xamoi ckupau</i>=A0of the &q=

uot;reference=A0grammar&quot;)=A0work in xorlo.</div></div></span></i></div=

>

</div> </span></i></div><div><div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">2009/9/6 Jorge Ll=

amb=EDas <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jjllambias@gmail.com" targ=

et=3D"_blank">jjllambias@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span><div><div></div><div class=

=3D"h5">

<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-lef=

t:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">

<div>On Sat, Sep 5, 2009 at 6:25 PM, Squark Rabinovich&lt;<a href=3D"mailto=

:top.squark@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">top.squark@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote=
:<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; In other words, since we&#39;re doing about 5 men and 3 women rather t=
han 1 man<br>
&gt; and 1 woman, it seems that a quantifier is logically=A0necessary, and =
such a<br>
&gt; term cannot be a &quot;constant&quot;.<br>
<br>

</div>This might help understand how a term can have plural reference:<br>

<a href=3D"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plural_quantification" target=3D"_b=
lank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plural_quantification</a><br>
<br>
mu&#39;o mi&#39;e xorxes<br>
<br>
<br>
To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to <a href=3D"mailto:lojban-list-r=
equest@lojban.org" target=3D"_blank">lojban-list-request@lojban.org</a><br>
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g" target=3D"_blank">secretary@lojban.org</a> for help.<br>
<br>

</blockquote></div></div></div><br></div></div></div> </blockquote></div><br></div>

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Date: Mon, 7 Sep 2009 12:54:17 -0300
Message-ID: <925d17560909070854sb779926t4ad3321499753241@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: lojban Re: xorlo
From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jorge_Llamb=EDas?= <jjllambias@gmail.com>
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On Mon, Sep 7, 2009 at 11:04 AM, John E Clifford<kali9putra@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> (I use "bunch" and even that bugs xorxes, who wants no
> hint of an entity between the brodas and their expression, so just "(Some)
> brodas").

Yes, the reason it bugs me is that for me any quantification of "LE
broda" should only be concerned with things that count as broda. Using
words such as mass/group/bunch can be harmless, as long as one is not
tempted by these words to start quantifying over new entities. If we
do quantify over those new things, we are no longer counting brodas
and so I prefer to use a different selbri for that new type of entity,
"lo gunma be lo broda", "lo girzu be lo broda", "lo selcmi be lo
broda", and so on. Using gadri to introduce these new entities just
leads to trouble.

mu'o mi'e xorxes

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Date: Mon, 7 Sep 2009 07:04:30 -0700 (PDT)
From: John E Clifford <kali9putra@yahoo.com>
Subject: lojban Re: xorlo
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=0A=0A=0A>=0A>On Mon, Sep 7, 2009 at 12:01 AM, Squark Rabinovich <top.squar=
k@gmail.com> wrote:=0A>=0A>Btw, what happened to lo'e and le'e ? They are n=
ot mentioned in the pages about xorlo. Were they scrapped?=0A>>=0A>>=0A>>An=
yway, since nobody gave a complete answer about xorlo, I'll take a shot at =
guessing how it should work.=0A>>Hey, we did the best we could. What proble=
ms remain. (Looking below, I see you haven't yet really taken account of w=
hat we said.)=0A>>=0A>>Lets start with lo . The syntax is=0A>>=0A>>=0A>>op=
tional outer quantifier lo optional inner quantifier broda=0A>>=0A>>=0A>=
>lo broda means "at least one mass of broda". For example, lo nanmu cu bevr=
i le pipno means "at least one group of men carries the piano(s)". The size=
of the mass is unknown, in particular it can consist of a single object in=
which case it is in fact an individual. Also, for continuous things like m=
udri or rokci the size might be meaningless i.e. not representable as a nat=
ural number =0A>>I think the word "mass" is a bad choice here, as it brings=
to mind things like water, which can, indeed, be handled by this technique=
but are better treated in other ways. And the "at least one" doesn't work=
either, lois just like le except for being veridical, so "the group of act=
ual brodas I have in mind" is better (except that "group" has a mathematica=
l sound inappropriate here (I use "bunch" and even that bugs xorxes, who wa=
nts no hint of an entity between the brodas and their expression, so just "=
(Some) brodas").=0A>>=0A>>lo n broda where n is a quantifier means "at leas=
t one mass of broda out of a mass of n broda". Supposedly, the later mass o=
f n broda is not just a random collection of broda but a group unified by s=
omething. For example, lo mu nanmu cu bevri le pipno means "at least one gr=
oup of men out of a group of 5 men carries the piano(s)". The size of the m=
ass is still unknown, but it can be at most n=0A>>No, the group (bunch) has=
5 members (x: "Five men" that I have in mind and who will be considered to=
gether in what follows)=0A>>=0A>>=0A>>=0A>>m lo broda where m is a quantifi=
er means "m individual broda". For example, su'o ci lo nanmu cu bevri le pi=
pno means "3 men carry the piano(s) (individually), and possibly som
e other=
individual men and/or groups of men do this as well". On the other hand ci=
lo nanmu cu bevri le pipno means "3 men carry the piano(s) (individually) =
and no other man or group of men does this".=0A>>Note, importantly, that th=
e three (or at least three) men are from a bunch which will be treated toge=
ther, not just any old men. Also, fractional quantification makes some sen=
se here, again as pulling out a number of brodas, the number being specifie=
d as a fraction of the whole.This section, combined with what follows remin=
ds me that I have forgotten how to talk about several bunches. I remember =
it as clever, but not the actual technique.=0A>>=0A>>=0A>>m lo n broda wher=
e n and m are quantifier means "m individual broda out of a mass of n broda=
". For example, ci le mu nanmu cu bevri le pipno means "3 men out of a grou=
p of 5 men carry the piano(s) (individually) and no other man or group of m=
en within that group of 5 men does this".=0A>>I'm not sure about the "and n=
o other group within that group" but basically, this looks right. Note the=
joy of lo ci lo mu nanmu where we get back to "three men out of our bunch =
of five, acting together...."=0A>>=0A>>loi : The syntax is optional outer =
quantifier pi optional fractional outer quantifier loi optional inner q=
uantifier broda=0A>>=0A>>=0A>>loi broda is the same as lo broda . loi n br=
oda is the same as lo n broda .=0A>>I think this is definitely wrong; masse=
s are different from bunches (although, in Lojban at least, masses can be t=
reated as special kinds of bunches). I think we are now at the blender cas=
es, at least for things like humans. At the very least, the "members" of l=
oi broda are not guaranteed recoverable in their original form: a fifth of =
loi mu nanmu need not be a nanmu, only becomposed entirely of nanmu bits.=
=0A>>=0A>>m loi broda where m is a quantifier means "m masses of broda". Fo=
r example, su'o ci loi nanmu cu bevri le pipno means "3 groups of men carry=
the piano(s), and possibly some other individual men and/or groups of men =
do this as well". On the other hand ci loi nanmu cu bevri le pipno means "3=
groups of men carry the piano(s) and no other man or group of men does thi=
s". The size of the masses is unknown. In particular any/all of the masses =
can be of size 1 and thus in effect individuals. The size might be meaningl=
ess for continuous entities.=0A>>>>Another example is lu'i ci loi nanmu cu =
simxu lo nu damba which means "three groups of men fight against each other=
", where "each other" means between the groups, not within them.=0A>>I'm no=
t sure I followed all this but I think it is more or less right; certainly,=
pulling individuals out of a mass cannot be the job of a whole-number quan=
tifier. And I think your examples make more sense with lo. =0A>>m loi n b=
roda where n and m are quantifier means "m masses of broda out of a mass of=
n broda". For example, ci loi mu no nanmu cu bevri le pipno means "3 group=
s of men which are subgroups of a group of 50 men carry the piano(s), and p=
ossibly some other individual men and/or groups of men do this as well". On=
the other hand ci loi nanmu cu bevri le pipno means "3 groups of men carry=
the piano(s) and no other man or group of men within that group of 50 men =
does this". The size of the masses is unknown. In particular any/all of the=
masses can be of size 1 and thus in effect individuals. The size might be =
meaningless for continuous entities.=0A>>No, I think — based on the above =
-- that it means m masses of n brodas, drawn from all the brodas.=0A>> Alte=
rnatively, it might be a mass of m brodas drawn from the mass of n.=0A>>=0A=
>>Adding a fractional outer quantifier fixes the total size of the masses i=
nvolved. For example ci pi vo loi mu no nanmu cu bevri le pipno means the s=
ame as above, with the added information that the 3 groups of men together =
consist 0.4 of the total group i.e. 50 x 0.4 =3D 20 men.=0A>>I don't know w=
hether your are portioning out a mass by weight or volume or some other met=
rical way, but this just says you're talking about 0.4 of it.=0A>>lo'i : Th=
e syntax is optional outer quantifier pi optional fractional outer quant=
ifier lo'i optional inner quantifier broda=0A>>=0A>>=0A>>lo'i broda mean=
s "at least one mass of sets of broda" Ithinkthat lo'i is as specific (or i=
s it definite?) asloitself, i.e., this means "the set of broda I have in mi=
nd."=0A>>=0A>>lo'i n broda means "at least one mass of subsets of a set of =
n broda"=0A>>It just says =3Dthe set has n members.=0A>>=0A>>m lo'i broda m=
eans "m sets of broda"=0A>>I just don't think so; at best it means an m-mem=
bered subset of the original set, and I am not sure it doesn't get us back =
to the members directly.=0A>>=0A>>m lo'i n broda means "m subsets of a set =
of n broda"=0A>>Ditto=0A>>=0A>>Adding a fractional outer quantifier fixes t=
he size of union of the sets involved.=0A>>I don't see this one; I would su=
ppose they gave the number of members (in the subset) as a fraction of the =
original set=0A>>=0A>>le lei le'i work in the same way except that a priori=
, I don't consider all broda but a specific set of things-I-call-broda. The=
inner quantifier specifies the size of this set.=0A>>la lai la'i work in t=
he same way except that they refer to things named broda . The inner quanti=
fier is merely a part of the name.=0A>>I have tried to think of all this as=
systematic and it well may not be.=0A>>=0A>>It is also an interesting ques=
tion how sumti-based descriptions (which are mentioned in the xamoi ckupau =
of the "reference grammar") work in xorlo.=0A>>I don't see the problem here=
, as witness the example above.=0A>>=0A>>2009/9/6 Jorge Llamb=EDas <jjllamb=
ias@gmail.com>=0A>>=0A>>=0A>>On Sat, Sep 5, 2009 at 6:25 PM, Squark Rabinov=
ich<top.squark@gmail.com> wrote:=0A>>>>>>>=0A>>>>>>> In other words, since =
we're doing about 5 men and 3 women rather than 1 man=0A>>>>>>> and 1 woman=
, it seems that a quantifier is logically necessary, and such a=0A>>>>>>> t=
erm cannot be a "constant".=0A>>>=0A>>>This might help understand how a ter=
m can have plural reference:=0A>>>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plural_quant=
ification=0A>>>=0A>>>>>>mu'o mi'e xorxes=0A>>>=0A>>>=0A>>>>>>To unsubscribe=
from this list, send mail to lojban-list-request@lojban.org=0A>>>>>>with t=
he subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if=0A>>>>>=
>you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help.=0A>>>=0A>=
>>=0A>>=0A>=0A>=0A=0A=0A=0A
--0-220822471-1252332270=:83513
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<html><head><style type=3D"text/css"><!-- DIV {margin:0px;} --></style></he=

ad><body><div style=3D"font-family:times new roman,new york,times,serif;fon= t-size:12pt"><br><div style=3D"font-family: times new roman,new york,times,= serif; font-size: 12pt;"><div style=3D"font-family: times new roman,new yor= k,times,serif; font-size: 12pt;"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div class=3D"gmail_= quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"border-left: 1px solid rg= b(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;"><div><div = style=3D"font-family: lucida console,sans-serif; font-size: 8pt;"><div styl= e=3D"font-family: lucida console,sans-serif; font-size: 8pt;"><div style=3D= "font-family: times new roman,new york,times,serif; font-size: 12pt;"><div>= <div class=3D"h5"><div dir=3D"ltr"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Mon, S=

ep 7, 2009 at 12:01 AM, Squark Rabinovich <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a rel=3D"n=
ofollow" ymailto=3D"mailto:top.squark@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank"
href=3D"mailto:top.squark@gmail.com">top.squark@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> w=

rote:<br>=0A=0A<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"border-left: 1px =

solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;"><d=
iv dir=3D"ltr">Btw, what happened to <i>lo'e</i> and <i>le'e</i> =

? They are not mentioned in the pages about xorlo. Were they scrapped?<div>= =0A=0A<br></div><div>Anyway, since nobody gave a complete answer about xorl= o, I'll take a shot at guessing how it should work.</div>=0A<div><span styl=

e=3D"font-weight: bold;">Hey, we did the best we could. What problems remai=
n.  (Looking below, I see you haven't yet really taken account of what=

we said.)</span><br></div><div>Lets start with <i>lo</i> . The syntax= is</div><div><br></div><div>optional outer quantifier <i>lo</i> op=

tional inner quantifier <i>broda</i></div><div><i><br></i></div><div><i>lo=

broda<span style=3D"font-style: normal;"> means "at least one mass of=
</span>broda<span style=3D"font-style: normal;">". For example, <i>lo=
nanmu <span style=3D"font-style: normal;"><i>cu</i> <i><span sty=
le=3D"font-style: normal;"><i>bevri le pipno</i> means "at least one g=
roup of men carries the piano(s)". The size of the mass is unknown, in part=
icular it can consist of a single object in which case it is in fact an ind=
ividual. Also, for continuous things like </span>mudri</i> or <i>rokci=
</i> the size might be meaningless i.e. not representable
as a natural number <br><span style=3D"font-weight: bold;">I think the wor=
d "mass" is a bad choice here, as it brings to mind things like water, whic=
h can, indeed, be handled by this technique but are better treated in other=
ways.  And the "at least one" doesn't work either, <span style=3D"fon=
t-style: italic;">lo</span></span></span></i></span></i><span style=3D"font=
-style: normal;"><span style=3D"font-style: normal;"><span style=3D"font-we=
ight: bold;"> is just like <span style=3D"font-style: italic;">le</span> ex=
cept for being veridical, so "the group of actual </span></span></span><i><=
span style=3D"font-style: normal;"><i><span style=3D"font-style: normal;"><=
span style=3D"font-weight: bold;"><span style=3D"font-style: italic;"></spa=
n>brodas I have in mind" is better (except that "group" has a mathematical =
sound inappropriate here (I use "bunch" and even that bugs xorxes, who want=
s no hint of an entity between the brodas and their expression, so just "(S=
ome)

brodas").</span><br></span></i></span></i></div>=0A=0A=0A<div><i>lo</i>&nb=

sp;<b>n</b> <i>broda</i> where <b>n</b> is a quantifier mean=
s "at least one mass of <i>broda</i> out of a mass of <b>n</b> <i=
>broda".</i> Supposedly, the later mass of <b>n</b> <i>broda</i>&=
nbsp;is not just a random collection of <i>broda</i> but a group unifi=
ed by something. For example, <i>lo mu nanmu <span style=3D"font-style=
: normal;"><i>cu</i> <i>bevri le pipno</i> means "at least one gr=
oup of men out of a group of 5 men carries the piano(s)". The size of the m=
ass is still unknown, but it can be at most <b>n</b><span style=3D"font-wei=
ght: bold;"><br>No, the group (bunch) has 5 members (x: "Five men" that I h=
ave in mind and who will be considered together in what follows)<br></span>=

</span></i></div>=0A=0A=0A<div><br></div><div><b>m</b> <i>lo broda</i>=

 where <b>m</b> is a quantifier means "<b>m </b>individual <i>bro=
da</i>". For example, <i>su'o ci lo nanmu <span style=3D"font-style: n=
ormal;"><i>cu</i> <i>bevri le pipno</i> means "3 men carry the pi=
ano(s) (individually), and possibly some other individual men and/or groups=
of men do this as well". On the other hand <i>ci lo nanmu <span style=
=3D"font-style: normal;"><i>cu</i> <i>bevri le pipno</i> means "3=
men carry the piano(s) (individually) and no other man or group of men doe=

s this".</span></i></span></i></div>=0A=0A=0A<div><span style=3D"font-weigh=

t: bold;">Note, importantly, that the three (or at least three) men are fro=
m a bunch which will be treated together, not just any old men.</span>&nbsp=

<span style=3D"font-weight

bold;">Also, fractional quantification makes=

some sense here, again as pulling out a number of brodas, the number being=
specified as a fraction of the whole.This section, combined with what foll=
ows reminds me that I have forgotten how to talk about several bunches.&nbs=
p; I remember it as clever, but not the actual technique.</span><br><br></d=

iv><div><b>m</b> <i>lo <span style=3D"font-style: normal;"><b>n</=

b> <span style=3D"font-style: italic;">broda</span> where <b>n</b=
> and <b>m</b> are quantifier means "<b>m</b> individual </s=
pan>broda</i> out of a mass of <b>n </b><i>broda</i>". For example, <i=
>ci le mu nanmu <span style=3D"font-style: normal;"><i>cu</i> <i>=
bevri le pipno</i> means "3 men out of a
group of 5 men carry the piano(s) (individually) and no other man or group=
of men <span style=3D"text-decoration: underline;">within that group of 5 =

men</span> does this".</span></i></div>=0A=0A=0A<div><span style=3D"fo=

nt-weight: bold;">I'm not sure about the "and no other group within that gr=
oup" but basically, this looks right.  Note the joy of <span style=3D"=
font-style: italic;">lo ci lo mu nanmu</span> where we get back to "three m=

en out of our bunch of five, acting together...."</span><br></div><div><i>l=

oi</i> : The syntax is optional outer quantifier <i>pi</i> opt=
ional fractional outer quantifier <i>loi</i> optional inner quantifi=

er <i>broda</i></div><div><i><br></i></div><div><i><span style=3D"font-sty= le: normal;"><div>=0A=0A=0A<i>loi broda<span style=3D"font-style: normal;">=

 is the same as </span>lo broda . <span style=3D"font-style: norm=
al;"><i>loi</i> <b>n</b> <i>broda</i> is the same as <i=

>lo</i> <b>n</b> <i>broda .</i></span></i></div>=0A<div><span sty=

le=3D"font-weight: bold;">I think this is definitely wrong; masses are diff=
erent from bunches (although, in Lojban at least, masses can be treated as =
special kinds of bunches).  I think we are now at the blender cases, a=
t least for things like humans.  At the very least, the "members" of l=
oi broda are not guaranteed recoverable in their original form: <span =
style=3D"font-weight: bold;"> </span>a fifth of loi mu nanmu need not be a =

nanmu, only becomposed entirely of nanmu bits.</span><br></div><div><b>m</b=

> <i>loi broda</i> where <b>m</b> is a quantifier means=
"<b>m </b>masses of <i>broda</i>". For example, <i>su'o ci =
loi nanmu <span style=3D"font-style: normal;"><i>cu</i> <i>bevri =
le pipno</i> means "3 groups of men carry the piano(s), and possibly s=
ome other individual men and/or groups of men do this as well". On the othe=
r hand <i>ci loi nanmu <span style=3D"font-style:
normal;"><i>cu</i> <i>bevri le pipno</i> means "3 groups of men =
carry the piano(s) and no other man or group of men does this". The size of=
the masses is unknown. In particular any/all of the masses can be of size =
1 and thus in effect individuals. The size might be meaningless for continu=

ous entities.</span></i></span></i></div>=0A=0A<div>=0AAnother example=

is <i>lu'i ci loi nanmu <span style=3D"font-style: normal;"><i>cu</i>=
 <i>simxu lo nu damba</i> which means "three groups of men fight =
against each other", where "each other" means between the groups, not withi=

n them.</span></i></div>=0A=0A<div><span style=3D"font-weight: bold;">I'm n=

ot sure I followed all this but I think it is more or less right; certainly=
, pulling individuals </span><b><span style=3D"font-weight: normal;"><b><sp=
an style=3D"font-weight: bold;">out of a mass cannot be the job of a whole-=
number quantifier.  And I think your examples make more sense with <sp=
an style=3D"font-style: italic;">lo</span>.  <br></span>m</b> <i>=
loi <span style=3D"font-style: normal;"><b>n</b> <span style=3D"f=
ont-style: italic;">broda</span> where <b>n</b> and <b>=
m</b> are quantifier means </span></i>"<b>m </b>masses of&nb=
sp;<i>broda <span style=3D"font-style: normal;">out of a mass of =
<b>n </b><i>broda<span style=3D"font-style: normal;">". For example,&n=
bsp;<i>ci loi mu no nanmu <span style=3D"font-style: normal;"><i>cu</i=
> <i>bevri le pipno</i> means "3 groups of men which are subgroup=
s of a group of 50 men carry the
piano(s), and possibly some other individual men and/or groups of men do t=
his as well". On the other hand <i>ci loi nanmu <span style=
=3D"font-style: normal;"><i>cu</i> <i>bevri le pipno</i> means "3=
groups of men carry the piano(s) and no other man or group of men <sp=
an style=3D"text-decoration: underline;">within that group of 50 men</span>=
 does this". The size of the masses is unknown. In particular any/all =
of the masses can be of size 1 and thus in effect individuals. The size mig=
ht be meaningless for continuous entities.</span></i></span></i></span=

></i></span></i></span></b></div>=0A=0A=0A<div> <span style=3D"font-weight:=

bold;">No, I think — based on the above — that it means m masses of n br=
odas, drawn from all the brodas.<br> Alternatively, it might be a mass=

of m brodas drawn from the mass of n.</span><br></div><div>Adding a fracti=

onal outer quantifier fixes the total size of the masses involved. For exam=
ple <span style=3D"font-style: italic;">ci pi vo loi mu no nanmu =
<span style=3D"font-style: normal;"><i>cu</i> <span style=3D"font-styl=
e: italic;">bevri le pipno</span> means the same as above, with the ad=
ded information that the 3 groups of men together consist 0.4 of the total =

group i.e. 50 x 0.4 =3D 20 men.</span></span></div>=0A=0A=0A<div><span styl=

e=3D"font-weight: bold;">I don't know whether your are portioning out a mas=
s by weight or volume or some other metrical way, but this just says you're=
talking about 0.4 of it</span><i><span style=3D"font-weight: bold;">.<br><=
/span>lo'i</i> : The syntax is optional outer quantifier <i>pi<=
/i> optional fractional outer quantifier <i>lo'i</i> opti=

onal inner quantifier <i>broda</i></div><div><div><i><br></i></div><d= iv>=0A=0A=0A<i><span style=3D"font-style: normal;"><div><i>lo'i broda<span =

style=3D"font-style: normal;"> means "at least one mass of sets of </s=

pan>broda" </i></div></span></i><i><span style=3D"font-style: normal;"= ><div>=0A<span style=3D"font-weight: bold;">I</span><i><span style=3D"font-=

weight: bold;"> </span></i><span style=3D"font-weight: bold;"><span style=
=3D"font-weight: bold;">think</span></span><i> <span style=3D"font-weight: =
bold;"></span></i><span style=3D"font-weight: bold;"><span style=3D"font-we=
ight: bold;">that <span style=3D"font-style: italic;">lo'i</span> is as spe=
cific (or is it definite?) </span>as</span><i> <span style=3D"font-style: i=
talic;"><span style=3D"font-weight: bold;">lo</span></span></i><span style=
=3D"font-weight: bold;"> <span style=3D"font-weight: bold;">itself, i.e., t=
his means "the set of broda I have in mind."</span></span><i><span style=3D=
"font-style: italic;"><span style=3D"font-weight: bold;"></span></span><br>=

</i></div><div><i><span style=3D"font-style: normal;"><i>lo'i</i> <b>n=

</b> <i>broda</i> means "at least one mass of subsets of </span><=

/i>a set of <b>n</b> <i>broda"</i></div><div>=0A<span style=3D"font-we= ight: bold;">It just says =3Dthe set has n members.</span><br></div><div><b=

>m</b> <i>lo'i broda</i> means "<b>m </b>sets of <i>bro=

da</i>"</div><div><span style=3D"font-weight: bold;">I just don't think so;=

at best it means an m-membered subset of the original set, and I am not su=

re it doesn't get us back to the members directly.</span><br></div><div><b>=

<span style=3D"font-weight: normal;"><b>m</b> <i>lo'i <span style=
=3D"font-style: normal;"><b>n</b> <span style=3D"font-style: italic;">=
broda</span> means "<b>m </b>subsets of a set of <b>n</b> </span>=

broda"</i></span></b></div>=0A=0A=0A<div><span style=3D"font-weight: bold;"= >Ditto</span><br></div><div>Adding a fractional outer quantifier fixes the = size of union of the sets involved.</div><div><span style=3D"font-weight: b=

old;">I don't see this one; I would suppose they gave the number of members=

(in the subset) as a fraction of the original set</span><br></div><div><di=

v><i>le</i> <i>lei le'i </i>work in the same way except that a pr=
iori, I don't consider all <i>broda</i> but a specific set of things-I=
-call-<i>broda<span style=3D"font-style: normal;">. T</span><span style=3D"=
font-style: normal;">he inner quantifier specifies the size of this set.</s=

pan></i></div>=0A=0A=0A<div><i><span style=3D"font-style: normal;"></span>l=

a lai la'i</i> work in the same way except that they refer to things <=
span style=3D"text-decoration: underline;">named</span> <i>broda =

</i>. The inner quantifier is merely a part of the name.</div>=0A=0A=0A<div=

><span style=3D"font-weight: bold;">I have tried to think of all this as sy=

stematic and it well may not be.</span><br></div><div>It is also an interes=

ting question how <i>sumti</i>-based descriptions (which are mentioned in t=
he <i>xamoi ckupau</i> of the "reference grammar") work in x=

orlo.</div></div></span></i></div>=0A=0A</div>=0A</span></i></div><div><div=

><span style=3D"font-weight: bold;">I don't see the problem here, as witnes=

s the example above.</span><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">2009/9/6 Jorge Ll=

amb=EDas <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a rel=3D"nofollow" ymailto=3D"mailto:jjllam=
bias@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:jjllambias@gmail.com">jjll=

ambias@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span><div><div></div>=0A<div>=0A<br><blockquote c=

lass=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); ma=

rgin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">=0A<div>On Sat, Sep 5, 2009 at=

6:25 PM, Squark Rabinovich&lt;<a rel=3D"nofollow" ymailto=3D"mailto:top.sq=
uark@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:top.squark@gmail.com">top.=
squark@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>=0A&gt;<br>=0A&gt; In other words, since=
we're doing about 5 men and 3 women rather than 1 man<br>=0A&gt; and 1 wom=
an, it seems that a quantifier is logically necessary, and such a<br>=

=0A&gt; term cannot be a "constant".<br>=0A<br>=0A</div>This might help und= erstand how a term can have plural reference:<br><span><span>=0A<a target=

=3D"_blank" href=3D"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plural_quantification">htt=
p://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plural_quantification</a></span></span><br>=0A<br=
>=0Amu'o mi'e xorxes<br>=0A<br>=0A<br>=0ATo unsubscribe from this list, sen=
d mail to <a rel=3D"nofollow" ymailto=3D"mailto:lojban-list-request@lojban.=
org" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:lojban-list-request@lojban.org">lojba=
n-list-request@lojban.org</a><br><span><span>=0Awith the subject unsubscrib=
e, or go to <a target=3D"_blank" href=3D"http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/">http:=
//www.lojban.org/lsg2/</a>, or if</span></span><br>=0Ayou're really stuck, =
send mail to <a rel=3D"nofollow" ymailto=3D"mailto:secretary@lojban.org" ta=
rget=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:secretary@lojban.org">secretary@lojban.org</=

a> for help.<br>=0A<br>=0A</blockquote></div></div></div><br></div></div></= div>=0A</blockquote></div><br></div>=0A</div></div></div></div></div><br>= =0A=0A </div></blockquote></div><br></div></div>=0A</div></div></div><=

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Date: Mon, 7 Sep 2009 07:04:30 -0700 (PDT)
From: John E Clifford <kali9putra@yahoo.com>
Subject: lojban Re: xorlo
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Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2009 12:17:46 -0400
Message-ID: <96f789a60910150917l4c1f228an183fedb6c2dd376c@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: lojban Re: Toronto Escort Toronto Asian Escort Yfc Escort Agency
From: Michael Turniansky <mturniansky@gmail.com>
To: lojban-list@lojban.org
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On Thu, Oct 15, 2009 at 9:09 AM, Luke Bergen <lukeabergen@gmail.com> wrote:
> I take it the mailing server is getting hit with spam?

Either that, or they have a VERY weak grasp of lojban....

>
> On Thu, Oct 15, 2009 at 2:27 AM, yfcescort <lojban-out@lojban.org> wrote:
>>
>> Toronto Escort Toronto Asian Escort  Yfc Escort Agency
snip

To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list-request@lojban.org
with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if
you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help.

org
Subject: lojban Getting added & navigating the wave (was: The New Method)
References: <8a20e9f70912181024t29e56190u762c85c8373e0c6a@mail.gmail.com> <925d17560912181211o485199adj246be26f7ce5e368@mail.gmail.com> <8a20e9f70912181227j40b5b65didcef9b757ce87df0@mail.gmail.com> <925d17560912181357y2ba48da3rf9190d51c3ed9690@mail.gmail.com> <702226df0912181416v5323abcci20104a62020f702c@mail.gmail.com> <925d17560912181433t763d1345s6d0c52e752090287@mail.gmail.com>
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Jorge Llamb=EDas wrote:
> Today I discovered that I was suddenly able to edit, and that I had bee=
n
> added to it. I don't know if this is due to some delayed effect of my t=
rying
> to add myself, or if someone else added me.

I think it was me adding you t

hat caused that. If you mail/wave me
(timonator@googlewave.com) i will add anyone to the wave who wants to edi=
t it.

BTW: using the scroll buttons (the ones at the top and bottom of the scro=
ll
slidey thingie) you can navigate much better. also note that as soon as t=
he
mouse leaves the area of the button, it will immediately stop. that's bee=
n
helpful to me in the past.

mu'o mi'e timos

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To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list-request@lojban.org
with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if
you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help.

org
Subject: lojban Getting added & navigating the wave (was: The New Method)
References: <8a20e9f70912181024t29e56190u762c85c8373e0c6a@mail.gmail.com> <925d17560912181211o485199adj246be26f7ce5e368@mail.gmail.com> <8a20e9f70912181227j40b5b65didcef9b757ce87df0@mail.gmail.com> <925d17560912181357y2ba48da3rf9190d51c3ed9690@mail.gmail.com> <702226df0912181416v5323abcci20104a62020f702c@mail.gmail.com> <925d17560912181433t763d1345s6d0c52e752090287@mail.gmail.com>
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Jorge Llamb=EDas wrote:
> Today I discovered that I was suddenly able to edit, and that I had bee=
n
> added to it. I don't know if this is due to some delayed effect of my t=
rying
> to add myself, or if someone else added me.

I think it was me adding you that caused that. If you mail/wave me
(timonator@googlewave.com) i will add anyone to the wave who wants to edi=
t it.

BTW: using the scroll buttons (the ones at the top and bottom of the scro=
ll
slidey thingie) you can navigate much better. also note that as soon as t=
he
mouse leaves the area of the button, it will immediately stop. that's bee=
n
helpful to me in the past.

mu'o mi'e timos

------enig559D1A092C629101BF2DA976
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iYUAnRT2qhWsNOfQw36HnBGiw+0y2l3t
=omC4
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----enig559D1A092C629101BF2DA976

To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list-request@lojban.org
with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if
you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help.

org
Subject: lojban Getting added & navigating the wave (was: The New Method)
References: <8a20e9f70912181024t29e56190u762c85c8373e0c6a@mail.gmail.com> <925d17560912181211o485199adj246be26f7ce5e368@mail.gmail.com> <8a20e9f70912181227j40b5b65didcef9b757ce87df0@mail.gmail.com> <925d17560912181357y2ba48da3rf9190d51c3ed9690@mail.gmail.com> <702226df0912181416v5323abcci20104a62020f702c@mail.gmail.com> <925d17560912181433t763d1345s6d0c52e752090287@mail.gmail.com>
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------enig559D1A092C629101BF2DA976
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Jorge Llamb=EDas wrote:
> Today I discovered that I was suddenly able to edit, and that I had bee=
n
> added to it. I don't know if this is due to some delayed effect of my t=
rying
> to add myself, or if someone else added me.

I think it was me adding you that caused that. If you mail/wave me
(timonator@googlewave.com) i will add anyone to the wave who wants to edi=
t it.

BTW: using the scroll buttons (the ones at the top and bottom of the scro=
ll
slidey thingie) you can navigate much better. also note that as soon as t=
he
mouse leaves the area of the button, it will immediately stop. that's bee=
n
helpful to me in the past.

mu'o mi'e timos

------enig559D1A092C629101BF2DA976
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iYUAnRT2qhWsNOfQw36HnBGiw+0y2l3t
=omC4
---END PGP SIGNATURE---

----enig559D1A092C629101BF2DA976

To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list-request@lojban.org
with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if
you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help.