Lojban In General

Posted by Minimiscience on Wed 31 of Dec, 2008 22:13 GMT posts: 3588

de'i li 31 pi'e 12 pi'e 2008 la'o fy. tsofian@aol.com .fy. cusku zoi skamyxatra.
> Happy New Year which I think is gei/ni'o/na'a, but I am just learning.
.skamyxatra

It's "{gekni'ona'a}." {lujvo}, like all other {brivla}, must contain a
consonant pair within the first five letters (not counting apostrophes and Ys)
in order to keep from being broken up into {cmavo}. Also, there's no reason to
place slashes between the {rafsi}.

> The human allies of the allies call them something like "treasonous
> destroyers of progress".? How would that be translated into Lojban?

I would translate it as either "{tolsrafavyspo}" (anti-support develop
destroyer) or "{spofavypro}" (destroy-develop-opponent). Note that, due to the
inevitable semantic ambiguity of {tanru} & {lujvo} formation, anyone unfamiliar
with these words (or familiar with them in a different context) who encounters
the terms might interpret them as "anti-((support-develop) opponent)" or
"(destroy-develop) opponent," respectively. I suppose "{tolsrafavyspo}" could
be broken up as "{tolsra favyspo}" to make the grouping clearer, or you could
add in a bunch of "{bor}"s or "{kem}"s (or just use a {tanru} with "{bo}"s
and/or "{ke}"s) to make the grouping painfully explicit. Perhaps the robots
have a database of {lujvo} and their meanings?

> Central to the current plot lines is the release of a Hive Organism of
> extreme lethality unto Earth and the efforts to destroy it before it eats
> everything on the planet (think of the movies Them! and Zulu! being combined
> and you will get a fair image). How would something like "large autonomous
> high gravity biological system?removal superorganism" be rendered?

I would just say "{brazu'e ji'espo rairji'e}" (large-autonomous
organism-destroy extreme-organism) for that, possibly changing the last word to
"{raircemji'e}" (extreme-community-organism) if you want to denote the fact
that it's a hive organism (there's probably a better way to translate that
part, but I don't know it). I'm not sure how to translate the "high gravity"
bit; how important is that aspect to the description? Are there a lot of large
autonomous biological system removal superorganisms in this setting that
_aren't_ high gravity?

> Since the aliens are unable to modify their programming (which will cause
> them no end of trouble against the wily Earthers) lojban will be a 100%
> conserved language.

Unfortunately, Lojban in the real world is not 100% conserved. The two most
notable changes to it have been the Great Rafsi Reallocation of 1993 (1994?)
and the more recent redefinition of "{lo}" and "{le}" (called "xorlo"). Even
if you use Lojban as it is defined at this point in time, what will you do in a
few months (or probably longer) if & when the BPFK comes to a consensus on the
meaning of "COI + {pei}" or one of the other unclear aspects of the language?

> Now the various human groups once associated with the aliens all have lojban
> as their root language but some have been isolated for several thousand years
> and in those cases the language has evolved.

I suppose you could work around the above problem somehow by assigning these
groups Lojban as it was in the real world at different points in time. Were it
not for the inevitable legal issues, I would even suggest that you make one of
these groups speak Loglan; naturally, they would be very secretive.

mu'omi'e la'o gy. Minimiscience .gy.

--
no zo mi nenri zo bende

To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list-request@lojban.org
with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if
you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help.

There may actually be low and medium gravity organisms. The aliens departed their home system with an enormous ship filled with all sorts of trick, so that upon arrival in a system they could basically say boo to any problems and make them go away. They had the resources and a type of long range drive for their ships that made a blind jump into a system with immediate work on engineering that system the prefered model for colonization.

Things went very wrong, which is outside the range of this discussion. However the way the aliens view planets isn't. One thing I have noticed about Lojban is the manner in which it can accumulate factors into a word or phrase. The aliens would probably describe Earth as "rocky cored high gravity planet with hydroshere and oxygen atmosphere in stellar radius for water to be liquid"

Thank you very much for the help and I look forward to learning as I go!

Terry

---Original Message---
From: Minimiscience <minimiscience@gmail.com>
To: lojban-list@lojban.org
Sent: Wed, 31 Dec 2008 4:12 pm
Subject: lojban Re: Assistance requested,

de'i li 31 pi'e 12 pi'e 2008 la'o fy. tsofian@aol.com .fy. cusku zoi skamyxatra.
> Happy New Year which I think is gei/ni'o/na'a, but I am just learning.
.skamyxatra

It's "{gekni'ona'a}." {lujvo}, like all other {brivla}, must contain a
consonant pair within the first five letters (not counting apostrophes and Ys)
in order to keep from being broken up into {cmavo}. Also, there's no reason to
place slashes between the {rafsi}.

> The human allies of the allies call them something like "treasonous
> destroyers of progress".? How would that be translated into Lojban?

I would translate it as either "{tolsrafavyspo}" (anti-support develop
destroyer) or "{spofavypro}" (destroy-develop-opponent). Note that, due to the
inevitable semantic ambiguity of {tanru} & {lujvo} formation, anyone unfamiliar
with these words (or familiar with them in a different context) who encounters
the terms might interpret them as "anti-((support-develop) opponent)" or
"(destroy-develop) opponent," respectively. I suppose "{tolsrafavyspo}" could
be broken up as "{tolsra favyspo}" to make the grouping clearer, or you could
add in a bunch of "{bor}"s or "{kem}"s (or just use a {tanru} with "{bo}"s
and/or "{ke}"s) to make the grouping painfully explicit. Perhaps the robots
have a database of {lujvo} and their meanings?

> Central to the current plot lines is the release of a Hive Organism of
> extreme lethality unto Earth and the efforts to destroy it before it eats
> everything on the planet (think of the movies Them! and Zulu! being combined
> and you will get a fair image). How would something like "large autonomous
> high gravity biological system?removal superorganism" be rendered?

I would just say "{brazu'e ji'espo rairji'e}" (large-autonomous
organism-destroy extreme-organism) for that, possibly changing the last word to
"{raircemji'e}" (extreme-community-organism) if you want to denote the fact
that it's a hive organism (there's probably a better way to translate that
part, but I don't know it). I'm not sure how to translate the
"high gravity"
bit; how important is that aspect to the description? Are there a lot of large
autonomous biological system removal superorganisms in this setting that
_aren't_ high gravity?

> Since the aliens are unable to modify their programming (which will cause
> them no end of trouble against the wily Earthers) lojban will be a 100%
> conserved language.

Unfortunately, Lojban in the real world is not 100% conserved. The two most
notable changes to it have been the Great Rafsi Reallocation of 1993 (1994?)
and the more recent redefinition of "{lo}" and "{le}" (called "xorlo"). Even
if you use Lojban as it is defined at this point in time, what will you do in a
few months (or probably longer) if & when the BPFK comes to a consensus on the
meaning of "COI + {pei}" or one of the other unclear aspects of the language?

> Now the various human groups once associated with the aliens all have lojban
> as their root language but some have been isolated for several thousand years
> and in those cases the language has evolved.

I suppose you could work around the above problem somehow by assigning these
groups Lojban as it was in the real world at different points in time. Were it
not for the inevitable legal issues, I would even suggest that you make one of
these groups speak Loglan; naturally, they would be very secretive.

mu'omi'e la'o gy. Minimiscience .gy.

--
no zo mi nenri zo bende

To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list-request@lojban.org
with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if
you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help.

Posted by lagejyspa on Fri 02 of Jan, 2009 14:55 GMT posts: 350

On Wed, Dec 31, 2008 at 5:56 PM, <tsofian@aol.com> wrote:

> Things went very wrong, which is outside the range of this discussion.
> However the way the aliens view planets isn't. One thing I have noticed
> about Lojban is the manner in which it can accumulate factors into a word or
> phrase. The aliens would probably describe Earth as "rocky cored high
> gravity planet with hydroshere and oxygen atmosphere in stellar radius for
> water to be liquid"
>
> Why "oxygen atmosphere"? It's only 1/5 oxygen. 3/4 of it is nitrogen.
As for "high gravity" — as far as planets go, it's only 4th out of 8 in our
solar system (And only Mercury and Mars are significantly less). Assuming
that planetary distribution is similar everywhere in the universe, I would
think "middle gravity" would be more accurate.

--gejyspa

It may have only 19.5 % O2, however that is the most chemically active portion of the atmosphere and if most life in the Universe is oxygen breathing it is an extremely imprtant data point. You might be right about being middle gravity. Of all the rocky worlds in our solar system it does have the higest gravity and if you include all the rocky moons of the gas giants (and our moon as well) it comes out to a much larger number of rocky bodies.

Terry

---Original Message---
From: Michael Turniansky <mturniansky@gmail.com>
To: lojban-list@lojban.org
Sent: Fri, 2 Jan 2009 8:52 am
Subject: lojban Re: Assistance requested,

On Wed, Dec 31, 2008 at 5:56 PM, <tsofian@aol.com> wrote:

Things went very wrong, which is outside the range of this discussion. However the way the aliens view planets isn't. One thing I have noticed about Lojban is the manner in which it can accumulate factors into a word or phrase. The aliens would probably describe Earth as "rocky cored high gravity planet with hydroshere and oxygen atmosphere in stellar radius for water to be liquid"

  Why "oxygen atmosphere"?  It's only 1/5 oxygen.  3/4 of it is nitrogen.  As for "high gravity" — as far as planets go, it's only 4th out of 8 in our solar system (And only Mercury and Mars are significantly less).  Assuming that planetary distribution is similar everywhere in the universe, I would think "middle gravity" would be more accurate.

     
                   --gejyspa

On Wed, Dec 31, 2008 at 7:56 PM, <tsofian@aol.com> wrote:
> One thing I have noticed
> about Lojban is the manner in which it can accumulate factors into a word or
> phrase. The aliens would probably describe Earth as "rocky cored high
> gravity planet with hydroshere and oxygen atmosphere in stellar radius for
> water to be liquid"

That could be a description based on "plini".

A description based on "terdi" might be {lo terdi be lo smacu jo'u lo
delfinu jo'u lo remna}, those being the sapient life forms on Earth in
descending order of intelligence, according to the Hitchhiker's Guide
to the Galaxy.

mu'o mi'e xorxes

To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list-request@lojban.org
with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if
you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help.

Thanks for all the assistance
I've been using the online glossary and just ordered the basic book but I have a few questions and requests: I'm certainly still not up to speed with grammar (gerna gen?), but hopefully that will come as I move forward:

I couldn't find words for the following english words:
locust
auquatic
sperm
lobe (as in ear)

I think that aquatic might be limna jau (from "swims in water"), but I'm not sure of the construction rules yet.

I have a lot of questions that will specific to the Science Fiction setting I'm building and don't want to burden up this list with too much that might be OT. If anyone has an interest please email me directly and I'll invite you over to my setting's yahoo group.

Terry Sofian
TSofian@aol.com

---Original Message---
From: Minimiscience <minimiscience@gmail.com>
To: lojban-list@lojban.org
Sent: Wed, 31 Dec 2008 4:12 pm
Subject: lojban Re: Assistance requested,

de'i li 31 pi'e 12 pi'e 2008 la'o fy. tsofian@aol.com .fy. cusku zoi skamyxatra.
> Happy New Year which I think is gei/ni'o/na'a, but I am just learning.
.skamyxatra

It's "{gekni'ona'a}." {lujvo}, like all other {brivla}, must contain a
consonant pair within the first five letters (not counting apostrophes and Ys)
in order to keep from being broken up into {cmavo}. Also, there's no reason to
place slashes between the {rafsi}.

> The human allies of the allies call them something like "treasonous
> destroyers of progress".? How would that be translated into Lojban?

I would translate it as either "{tolsrafavyspo}" (anti-support develop
destroyer) or "{spofavypro}" (destroy-develop-opponent). Note that, due to the
inevitable semantic ambiguity of {tanru} & {lujvo} formation, anyone unfamiliar
with these words (or familiar with them in a different context) who encounters
the terms might interpret them as "anti-((support-develop) opponent)" or
"(destroy-develop) opponent," respectively. I suppose "{tolsrafavyspo}" could
be broken up as "{tolsra favyspo}" to make the grouping clearer, or you could
add in a bunch of "{bor}"s or "{kem}"s (or just use a {tanru} with "{bo}"s
and/or "{ke}"s) to make the grouping painfully explicit. Perhaps the robots
have a database of {lujvo} and their meanings?

> Central to the current plot lines is the release of a Hive Organism of
> extreme lethality unto Earth and the efforts to destroy it before it eats
> everything on the planet (think of the movies Them! and Zulu! being combined
> and you will get a fair image). How would something like "large autonomous
> high gravity biological system?removal superorganism" be rendered?

I would just say "{brazu'e ji'espo rairji'e}" (large-autonomous
organism-destroy extreme-organism) for that, possibly changing the last word to
"{raircemji'e}" (extreme-community-organism) if you want to denote the fact
that it's a hive organism (there's probably a better way to translate that
part, but I don't know it). I'm not sure how to translate the
"high gravity"
bit; how important is that aspect to the description? Are there a lot of large
autonomous biological system removal superorganisms in this setting that
_aren't_ high gravity?

> Since the aliens are unable to modify their programming (which will cause
> them no end of trouble against the wily Earthers) lojban will be a 100%
> conserved language.

Unfortunately, Lojban in the real world is not 100% conserved. The two most
notable changes to it have been the Great Rafsi Reallocation of 1993 (1994?)
and the more recent redefinition of "{lo}" and "{le}" (called "xorlo"). Even
if you use Lojban as it is defined at this point in time, what will you do in a
few months (or probably longer) if & when the BPFK comes to a consensus on the
meaning of "COI + {pei}" or one of the other unclear aspects of the language?

> Now the various human groups once associated with the aliens all have lojban
> as their root language but some have been isolated for several thousand years
> and in those cases the language has evolved.

I suppose you could work around the above problem somehow by assigning these
groups Lojban as it was in the real world at different points in time. Were it
not for the inevitable legal issues, I would even suggest that you make one of
these groups speak Loglan; naturally, they would be very secretive.

mu'omi'e la'o gy. Minimiscience .gy.

--
no zo mi nenri zo bende

To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list-request@lojban.org
with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if
you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help.

Posted by Minimiscience on Thu 15 of Jan, 2009 16:27 GMT posts: 3588

de'i li 15 pi'e 01 pi'e 2009 la'o fy. tsofian@aol.com .fy. cusku zoi skamyxatra.
> I couldn't find words for the following english words:
> locust
> auquatic
> sperm
> lobe (as in ear)
>
> I think that aquatic might be limna jau (from "swims in water"), but I'm not
> sure of the construction rules yet.
.skamyxatra

The notes for "{jalra}" (cockroach) recommend "{mantyjalra}" (ant-cockroach)
and "{mudyctijalra}" (wood-eat cockroach) as possible translations for "locust"
or "termite." I'm not sure how scientifically accurate that is.

The notes for "{djacu}" suggest "{jaupli}" (water-user) to mean "aquatic." If you want to make a {lujvo} out of "{limna djacu}," that would be "{limjau}."

The word for sperm is "{sovda}," a generic term for gamete, which also covers
eggs & pollen. If you want to explicitly specify a gamete of the male
persuasion, that would be "{nakso'a}."

There doesn't seem to be an obvious candidate for "earlobe," though. I suggest
"{dzikerlo}" (low-ear) — or maybe it should be "{kerdzi}" (ear-low)?

mu'omi'e .kamymecraijun.

--
do ta'e pilno le va valsi .i mi na jinvi lodu'u ri valsi da poi do jinvi lodu'u
ri valsi ke'a

To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list-request@lojban.org
with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if
you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help.

Posted by lagejyspa on Thu 15 of Jan, 2009 18:01 GMT posts: 350

On Thu, Jan 15, 2009 at 11:06 AM, <tsofian@aol.com> wrote:

> Thanks for all the assistance
> I've been using the online glossary and just ordered the basic book but I
> have a few questions and requests: I'm certainly still not up to speed with
> grammar (gerna gen?)

"gerna" is the word. "gen" is the rafsi (affix) form, used in making
compounds.

> , but hopefully that will come as I move forward:
>
> I couldn't find words for the following english words:
> locust

jalra is the general term that includes locusts. I suppose if you wanted to
be more specific, you could call it a gruspojalra (a "grain destroying
orthopteran")

>
> auquatic

djacu works just fine. If you mean living in the water, might I suggest
jacyxa'u

>
> sperm

sovda means not only egg, but sperm. If you need to distinguish, nakso'a
would be sperm as opposed to egg.

>
> lobe (as in ear)
>

Perhaps kerdandu (ear hanging thing)

>
> I think that aquatic might be limna jau (from "swims in water"), but I'm
> not sure of the construction rules yet.

"jau" to mean water can't stand alone/ Affix forms have to be part of
bigger words.l By itself, "jau" means 13 (hex digit D)

Hope this helps....
--gejyspa

Posted by lagejyspa on Thu 15 of Jan, 2009 18:01 GMT posts: 350

On Thu, Jan 15, 2009 at 11:26 AM, Minimiscience <minimiscience@gmail.com>wrote:

>
> The notes for "{jalra}" (cockroach) recommend "{mantyjalra}"
> (ant-cockroach)
> and "{mudyctijalra}" (wood-eat cockroach) as possible translations for
> "locust"
> or "termite." I'm not sure how scientifically accurate that is.
>

Those are only for termite (ant-orthopteran, wood-eating orthopteran).
The parenthetical wasn't meant to scope over locust, too.

--gejyspa