WikiDiscuss

Posted by arj on Mon 29 of Jun, 2009 20:35 GMT posts: 953

gejyspa asked:

> What does the phrase "genuine example" mean? An example found the corpus of already published lojban texts? What is the preferred order of source types, if different types of sources exist? (e.g. permanents texts like "Alice", stuff from random lojban pages (either within the tiki or without, that may or may not have been vetted, jboselkei, etc.), stuff from mailing lists, irc usages, private letters)

I don't think it matters where the example comes from, as long as it illustrates how the word is (or should be) used, and is correct.

In any case, I think it's better to slightly modify an example than to just invent a new example.

Posted by symuan on Tue 30 of Jun, 2009 18:32 GMT posts: 1

Perhaps you could also add a short section about cmene. Should their definitions be short phrases (like simply "Google." for "gugul")? One cmene, "bangrportuGAL", seems to have a different definition format: "p1=ba1 is the Portuguese language used by b2 to express/communicate b3 (si'o/du'u, not quote)". Which should it be?

> Use this thread to discuss the page:: Proposed jbovlaste guidelines

Posted by lagejyspa on Sun 22 of Nov, 2009 17:50 GMT posts: 350

On Mon, Jun 29, 2009 at 4:35 PM, arj<wikidiscuss@lojban.org> wrote:
>
> Re: Proposed jbovlaste guidelines
>
> Author: arj
>
> gejyspa asked:
>
>> What does the phrase "genuine example" mean? An example found the corpus of already published lojban texts?  What is the preferred order of source types, if different types of sources exist?  (e.g. permanents texts like "Alice", stuff from random lojban pages (either within the tiki or without, that may or may not have been vetted, jboselkei, etc.), stuff from mailing lists, irc usages, private letters)
>
> I don't think it matters where the example comes from, as long as it illustrates how the word is (or should be) used, and is correct.
>
> In any case, I think it's better to slightly modify an example than to just invent a new example.
>

But are you saying that the phrase "genuine example" means, rather,
"published citation"? It's the phrase that bothers me. When a math
book explains the method of adding two digit numbers and then says
"Example: 23+35=58", isn't that a "genuine example" despite the fact
it's never appeared anywhere else? Some dictionaries use quotes from
published author's works, but some merely say things like (under one
definition of "sister"): "one that is closely similar to or
associated with another <sister schools> <sister cities>" Those are
genuine examples, aren't they? So if you mean "citations from a
published source", say that.

--gejyspa

Posted by arj on Sun 22 of Nov, 2009 17:50 GMT posts: 953

On Mon, Jun 29, 2009 at 04:54:56PM -0400, Michael Turniansky wrote:
> On Mon, Jun 29, 2009 at 4:35 PM, arj<wikidiscuss@lojban.org> wrote:
> >
> > Re: Proposed jbovlaste guidelines
> >
> > Author: arj
> >
> > gejyspa asked:
> >
> >> What does the phrase "genuine example" mean? An example found the corpus of already published lojban texts?  What is the preferred order of source types, if different types of sources exist?  (e.g. permanents texts like "Alice", stuff from random lojban pages (either within the tiki or without, that may or may not have been vetted, jboselkei, etc.), stuff from mailing lists, irc usages, private letters)
> >
> > I don't think it matters where the example comes from, as long as it illustrates how the word is (or should be) used, and is correct.
> >
> > In any case, I think it's better to slightly modify an example than to just invent a new example.
> >
>
> But are you saying that the phrase "genuine example" means, rather,
> "published citation"? It's the phrase that bothers me.

I see. We probably need to find a new wording, but I don't think "published citation" is it.

What I'm looking for is a short phrase that means "example that originally occurred as a spontaneous usage in text or in speech, is not metalinguistic in nature, and is rendered here either verbatim or edited".

"Citation" does not seem to fit the bill. The relevant factor is that it is not constructed ex nihilo by the dictionary editors.

> When a math
> book explains the method of adding two digit numbers and then says
> "Example: 23+35=58", isn't that a "genuine example" despite the fact
> it's never appeared anywhere else?

I'm not sure I understand what you're getting at. To me, this seems more like an example-as-illustration rather than example-as-specimen to me.

> Some dictionaries use quotes from
> published author's works, but some merely say things like (under one
> definition of "sister"): "one that is closely similar to or
> associated with another <sister schools> <sister cities>" Those are
> genuine examples, aren't they?

So long as people often say "sister schools" and "sister cities", I agree, that's definitely a genuine example.

--
Arnt Richard Johansen http://arj.nvg.org/
Confusion among -ate ~ -ant pairs is even more prominate, since both
are legitimant suffixes. --Adam Albright

Posted by lagejyspa on Sun 22 of Nov, 2009 17:50 GMT posts: 350

On Mon, Jun 29, 2009 at 7:37 PM, Arnt Richard Johansen<arj@nvg.org> wrote:
> On Mon, Jun 29, 2009 at 04:54:56PM -0400, Michael Turniansky wrote:
>> On Mon, Jun 29, 2009 at 4:35 PM, arj<wikidiscuss@lojban.org> wrote:

>
> What I'm looking for is a short phrase that means "example that originally occurred as a spontaneous usage in text or in speech, is not metalinguistic in nature, and is rendered here either verbatim or edited".
>
> "Citation" does not seem to fit the bill. The relevant factor is that it is not constructed ex nihilo by the dictionary editors.
>
>> When a math
>> book explains the method of  adding two digit numbers and then says
>> "Example: 23+35=58", isn't that a "genuine example" despite the fact
>> it's never appeared anywhere else?
>
> I'm not sure I understand what you're getting at. To me, this seems more like an example-as-illustration rather than example-as-specimen to me.
>

I guess I'm not sure of what importance the difference is. Isn't
exactly the point that we are trying to _illustrate_ how to use the
word/what the word means? If I am trying to show an example for the
word "jinvi", for example, how/why does this sentence from Alice, "do
jinvi le du'u mi fenki kei fo ma", show the use any better than "mi
jinvi lo du'u lo tcima ba pluka kei fo lo za'i na dilnu" which I made
up 2 seconds ago? (I see you have changed the wording since
yesterday, btw. Thanks)

This brings up another, related question: Should examples ideally
show the use of all the sumti places (as those above do not)?

--gejyspa

Posted by bancus on Sun 22 of Nov, 2009 17:50 GMT posts: 52

Who are putting those in? gugl is more appropriate for Google, and
bangrportuGAL looks like a failed attempt at a type-3 fu'ivla.

-
Theodore Reed

On Tue, Jun 30, 2009 at 11:32, symuan<wikidiscuss@lojban.org> wrote:
>
> Re: Proposed jbovlaste guidelines
>
> Author: symuan
>
> Perhaps you could also add a short section about cmene. Should their definitions be short phrases (like simply "Google." for "gugul")? One cmene, "bangrportuGAL", seems to have a different definition format: "p1=ba1 is the Portuguese language used by b2 to express/communicate b3 (si'o/du'u, not quote)". Which should it be?
>
>> Use this thread to discuss the page:: Proposed jbovlaste guidelines
>
>
>
>
>
>