History: BPFK Section: sensory gismu

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Taken from two mailing list messages:
pamoi
remoi.

Sense words can either express experiencing the sensation or expressing an action being taken to acquire a sensation. In English, these are:

ActivePassive
look see
listen hear
touch feel
sniff smell
taste taste


In Lojban, there are few dedicated gismu:

ActivePassive
sight catlu viska
sound tirna
touch pencu
scent sumne
taste
generic zgana ganse


There are two options of lujvo. Naming based on the sensory organ gives:

ActivePassive
sight kalzga kalga'e
sound kerzga kerga'e
touch pilzga pilga'e
scent zbizga zbiga'e
taste tacyzgatacyga'e


Naming based on the thing being sensed gives:

ActivePassive
sight vinzga vinga'e
sound snazga snaga'e
touch te'uzgate'urga'e
scent panzga panga'e
taste vu'izgavu'irga'e

la gleki's first (aggressive) proposal

is to replace the current set of sensory predicates with another one.
The scheme is still not complete. Let's put all sensory aspects into one table.
These are the predicate that we might get (I will give them temporary names in curly brackets).

{HEAR} - x1 hears object(e.g. musician)/event (e.g. concert) x2, listens to it and defines x2 as x3 (noisy, loud, sweet, lovely, romantic etc.)
{SEE} - x1 sees object/event x2, looks at x2 and defines it as x3 (green, that it looks ugly etc.)
{SMELL} - x1 smells object/event x2, observes x2 and defines it as x3 (e.g. flowery,pungent, musk)
{TASTE} - x1 tastes object/event x2, observes x2 and defines it as x3 (e.g. tasty, sweet,sour)
{TOUCH} - x1 touches x2, observes (tries) x2 and defines it as having texture x3 (e.g. rought)
As you can see we actually need valsi with three places. "observe" is a variation of each predicate that can be best expressed using additional {jundi} or {zgana}.
This scheme is consistent. The only problem is that it doesn't correspond to the current mess of sensory gismu.

The only gismu that corresponds to this scheme is {te panci}.
Probably {te jvinu} as well (thanks xorxes for pointing out!) and {te skari}.

tirna3=viska3=skari4 is something that we can also place in every sensory gismu.
However, they can be easily expressed using {va'o}.

gua\spi's {vyi=X1 sees object X2 against background X3} looks like lojbanic tirna3.

{sumne} is a superfluous gismu.

{vrusi} overlaps the senses of taste and smell (against the policy of lojban one word=one meaning).

In gua\spi there are a bit better definitions, e.g. {xel=X1 smells like prototype (xi) X2*}.

la gleki's second (compromise) proposal


In order to reach maximum compatibility with the current gimste I can also suggest mergin x2 and x3 in my previous proposal getting

Alternate proposal
{tirna*} - x1 hears object(e.g. musician/sound)/event x2 (e.g. mi tirna lo nu balzgibende cu cladu)
{viska*} - x1 sees object/event x2 (mi viska lo du'u lo tricu cu crino)
{sumne*} - x1 smells object/event x2 (mi sumne lo nu lo xrula cu cpina)
{smaka*} - x1 tastes object/event x2 (mi me'oi TASTE lo nu lo plise cu titla)
{palpi*} - x1 touches x2 (mi me'oi TOUCH-FEEL lo nu lo sefta cu rufsu)

I also suggest that x2 in all 5 sensory gismu can be both an object and an event, thus allowing sumti-raising
so that we can say
''mi tirna lo balzgibende
mi tirna lo cladu
mi tirna lo nu balzgibende cu cladu ''

We have no gismu for TASTE ( {vrusi} has no place for experiencer) and TOUCH-FEEL ({pencu} is not what we need. when i touch {ko'a} with a screwdriver i touch-feel the screwdriver but touch {ko'a} ).
We would also need to allow in {sumne2} not only the object being smelled but the type of smell and abstraction for the combination of the object and it's smell.

la gleki's third proposal

full form semantically legal sumti-raising
viska lo tarmi be lo najnimreviska lo najnimre
tirna lo sance be lo palta poi ca'o porpitirna lo palta
smaka lo tasta be lo najnimresmaka lo najnimre
sumne lo panci be lo najnimresumne lo najnimre
te se panci fi lo najnimrete se panci lo najnimre
palpi lo xutla sefta be lo najnimrepalpi lo najnimre


In this table the second column contains raising. However, the meaning of broda2 is different.
In {mi viska lo tarmi} {lo najnimre} is a property of {tarmi} but in {mi viska lo najnimre} {lo najnimre} is a property of vision. You may call "an orange" any object in the form of an orange or colored like an orange. Perhaps you just meant "orange color" just like we do in English!

Resume.

This is something that definitely needs revision.
We have five senses and we must clearly express what we feel.

History

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Sat 13 of Apr, 2013 07:33 GMT gleki from 178.204.61.177 14
Fri 12 of Apr, 2013 13:10 GMT gleki from 178.204.1.82 13
Wed 10 of Apr, 2013 14:14 GMT gleki from 178.205.57.221 12
Tue 09 of Apr, 2013 13:07 GMT gleki from 178.204.102.67 11
Sun 07 of Apr, 2013 17:55 GMT gleki from 178.204.52.26 10
Mon 03 of Sep, 2012 15:19 GMT gleki from 178.204.40.155 9
Mon 03 of Sep, 2012 10:32 GMT gleki from 178.204.82.251 8
Mon 03 of Sep, 2012 10:30 GMT gleki from 178.204.82.251 7
Fri 31 of Aug, 2012 15:53 GMT gleki from 178.204.85.91 6
Mon 13 of Aug, 2012 14:43 GMT gleki from 178.204.15.183 5
Fri 10 of Aug, 2012 13:51 GMT gleki from 178.204.118.48 4
Sat 14 of Jul, 2012 20:53 GMT jandew from 168.7.237.122 Put everything in all pretty 3
Sat 14 of Jul, 2012 20:37 GMT jandew from 168.7.237.122 Added English Examples 2
Sat 14 of Jul, 2012 20:30 GMT jandew from 168.7.237.122 create the page to link 1
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