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History: BPFK gismu Section: Problems With ka
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Source of version: 2
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jarco is broken, it's just a question of how. Either: * jarco means "x1 showes itself to have property x2", which is of limited utility and contradicted by its notes, OR * jarco means "x1 shows something unspecifiable to have property x2", which is just plain broken Both Bob and John believe that the second option is true, and that the problem is that jarco uses the old (pre-du'u) definition of ka. This is borne out by the following phrase in the notes: (simple presence could be expressed by leka [object] cu zvati), which is totally illegal under the current ka. I'm not sure how to fix this. I think the right thing is to put a "thing having property" place between the x2 and x3. Fixes the problem, doesn't screw usage too badly (I doubt anyone much used the x3), and doesn't put the thing far away from its property in the place structure) as making the thing the x4 would. I'm totally open to suggestions, though. Bob notes that we need to look for other cases. There are 163 gismu that contain "propert" or the word "ka". They are listed below. I would like someone else to check them, please. I do enough around here. You're looking for "ka" (or, equivalently, "property" places) for which the thing having the property is in any way unclear. --------------- Of the 163 gismu listed, there are seven (__cmima, gunma, lacpu, lenjo, minra, ratni, selci__) that seem to be there by accident. We can divide the remaining 156 in nine groups: Group 1: x1 is XXX in property x2 (with eventual places such as by standard, under conditions, to observer, among members of set, etc.) This is the biggest group with 45+10 cases. The 45 are: __banli barda bebna carmi caxno cenba cimni ckaji cmalu cnici condi curve daplu denmi dikni drani fadni jdika kalsa kandi kantu makcu manfo milxe mulno mupli mutce pindi pluja prane ralci ricfu rirci ruble sampu simlu stodi traji tsal vipsi vitci vitno vrici zasni zenba__. The other 10 are: __gradu ranxi satci suksa__, which have the property in x3 and a standard or similar in x2, __cinmo ganse__, which are somewhat odd, __darsi tarti troci__, which can take an event in x2 (makes more sense than a property), and __girzu__, whose place structure needs clarifying. Group 2: x1 is XXX to x2 in (x1's) property x3 (a couple of them have by standard x4) This group has 12+1 cases. The 12 are: __cfipu cizra cnino fange mansa melbi slabu trina vajni xajmi zdile zunti__. The other one is __skicu__, which has an additional agent place in front. Group 3: x1 reacts XXX to x2 due to (x2's) property x3 This group has 4+1 cases: __ckasu ckire fengu jilra__, plus __xrani__ in which x1 doesn't react to the property but rather affects it. (It is odd that xrani has this place structure but ckire doesn't, though.) Group 4: x1 is XXX compared to x2 in property x3 This group has 16+3 cases: __bancu darno dukti dunli frica jbini jibni jimte lamji mapti mleca panra ralju sarxe simsa zmadu__, and the odd 3: __karbi__, which adds an agent in front, __rimni__, which has the property in x4, and __talsa__, which is somewhat strange and probably does not belong here. Group 5: x1 is an XXX, characterized by x? (usually with other intervening places) This group has 22 cases: __cedra cinse ciste citsi ckiku dinko fetsi jendu julne jurme klesi kruvi linsi nakni patxu pijne rafsi tansi tarci vidru xislu zbepi__ Group 6: x1 (ka) is an XXX property of x2 This group has 10 cases: __cfila cimde funca jinzi kampu ranji steci tcini tengu vrusi__. It is not clear that all of these really need properties in x1. Group 7: These contain a warning like this one in their definition: "x? may be a specific object, a commodity (mass), an event, or a property; pedantically, for objects/commodities, this is sumti-raising from ownership of the object/commodity". Some of them involve the transfer of this object/commodity and so presumably if it was a property it would apply to the old or to the new "owner". This group has 16 cases: __canja cirko cnemu dirba dunda friti jbera jdima jerna jinga kargu lebna pleji prali vamji vecnu__ Group 8: In these, the property does not seem to apply to anything, and should probably be an event. This group has 11 cases: __bapli cmoni cumki jgira jicmu kajde kufra lakne pajni stika tsapi__ Group 9: The remaining 5 cases: __ciksi__ x1 (person) explains x2 (event/state/property) to x3 with explanation x4 (du'u) __cipra__ x1 (process/event) is a test for/proof of property/state x2 in subject x3 (individ./set/mass) __cnano__ x1 [value] is a norm/average in property/amount x2 (ka/ni) among x3(s) (set) by standard x4 __jarco__ x1 (agent) shows/exhibits/displays/[reveals]/demonstrates x2 (property) to audience x3 __sisku__ x1 seeks/searches/looks for property x2 among set x3 (complete specification of set) ------------------- bancu banli bapli barda bebna canja carmi caxno cedra cenba cfila cfipu ciksi cimde cimni cinmo cinse cipra cirko ciste citsi cizra ckaji ckasu ckiku ckire cmalu cmima cmoni cnano cnemu cnici cnino condi cumki curve daplu darno darsi denmi dikni dinko dirba drani dukti dunda dunli fadni fange fengu fetsi frica friti funca ganse girzu gradu gunma jarco jbera jbini jdika jdima jendu jerna jgira jibni jicmu jilra jimte jinga jinzi julne jurme kajde kalsa kampu kandi kantu karbi kargu klesi kruvi kufra lacpu lakne lamji lebna lenjo linsi makcu manfo mansa mapti melbi milxe minra mleca mulno mupli mutce nakni pajni panra patxu pijne pindi pleji pluja prali prane rafsi ralci ralju ranji ranxi ratni ricfu rimni rirci ruble sampu sarxe satci selci simlu simsa sisku skicu slabu steci stika stodi suksa talsa tansi tarci tarti tcini tengu traji trina troci tsali tsapi vajni vamji vecnu vidru vipsi vitci vitno vrici vrusi xajmi xislu xrani zasni zbepi zdile zenba zmadu zunti
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