History: Opinionated Gripes: gismu definitions change proposals

Source of version: 4 (current)

! Issues brought up by members of the community: !! Uncategorized Issues * simsa shouldn't have "parallel" in the definition. It should be defined as exactly opposite of panra. * rlpowell: WRT "panra": I find "differing only in" to be colloquially confusing; "with differentiating property" would make it better for me; I'm not sure I can explain why. * kribacr and others on IRC are using the term ziltau to refer to what the parsers call a tanru-unit. The idea is that you cannot create tanru out of selbri per se - selbri include things like na broda and ka'e brode. Thus tanru are exclusively created out of ziltau. ziltau lack a 'tense slot' or 'negation slot' - these are things selbri own. The question arises - is this completely accurate? Can we say that na broda isn't really a selbri - but instead that broda is the selbri and na is just a negation 'tag' applied that selbri? Clear definition of what selbri are and if the term ziltau is needed would be useful. * The x2 of klani is rather non-specific and [https://groups.google.com/group/lojban/tree/browse_frm/month/2008-12/3704fd6219532cda?hl=en&rnum=11&_done=%2Fgroup%2Flojban%2Fbrowse_frm%2Fmonth%2F2008-12%3Fhl%3Den%26scoring%3Dd%26&scoring=d#doc_3704fd6219532cda|some really don't understand what it means]. I ( lindar ) think it's a numeric value based on how other measure-words are formed. * detri: The x1 is said to be in format [day,{week},{month},year], using {} for who knows what, and canonically forcing a little-endian date (with week number!). Can we change this to big-endian, and resolve this once and for all? * kutyje'u: It should be mentioned that ''logical'' tautology is meant, the rhetorical device does not make sense here. * linsi: The word “length” in the description is very confusing, because the measure is not meant, but a whole string. * cannot find “clika“ when searching for “moss”, “moss” should be the gloss word. * What is going on with the x3 and x4 of xrani? How do you fill those? I certainly don't know. -camgusmis < djancak> hmmm i guess you could damage the property of social well being as opposed to physical well being < ksion> Or self-esteem. Or privacy. Etc. !! Semantic Inconsistencies * Can a person be drani by doing the right thing? Consensus seems to be that no, only an action/event/that sort of thing can be drani, that it's more like {mapti}. But the text is horribly unclear. **If it's alright for someone like me to comment here, the gismu list does contain several words which all mean very similar things (drani, mapti, vrude, even xamgu, etc.) --((UserPagePlasticRaven|Plastic Raven)) * There have been many threads in the past over an issue regarding the definition of {botpi}, which now seems irrelevant as they had been arguing over an old definition that read something to the affect "x1 bottles x2 with x3". While this is completely irrelevant now, the idea behind it is still valid. Is a bottle still a bottle without contents? I'd say yes. Is a bottle still a bottle without a lid? I'd say no (at that point it's a bottle-shaped cup {lo kabri be tai lo botpi}.). However, we should make a language-wide decision. Does a dog stop being a dog after it dies? Does a bottle stop being a bottle when it's not bottling? Does a programmer cease to be a programmer when ey's not programming? -Lindar !! Abstraction Inconsistencies * Regarding fenki and other such, why are such words requiring {nu}, but xajmi and others not. [http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/browse_thread/thread/9de182fad80d38aa|Referenced here.] * [https://groups.google.com/group/lojban/tree/browse_frm/month/2005-01/96315dc4da488dfd?rnum=41&_done=%2Fgroup%2Flojban%2Fbrowse_frm%2Fmonth%2F2005-01%3F#doc_a4761944c07b35c2|We don't have all the measurements.] * [https://groups.google.com/group/lojban/tree/browse_frm/month/2005-02/14a92824961744de?rnum=11&_done=%2Fgroup%2Flojban%2Fbrowse_frm%2Fmonth%2F2005-02%3F#doc_7d0c998ae7e1a285|Is pacna broken?] * [https://groups.google.com/group/lojban/tree/browse_frm/month/2005-08/6a2022643f959c80?rnum=11&_done=%2Fgroup%2Flojban%2Fbrowse_frm%2Fmonth%2F2005-08%3F#doc_27e47c902e118083|Place structure of minli]. * [https://groups.google.com/group/lojban/tree/browse_frm/month/2005-12/c099da8a6ffb20c1?rnum=41&_done=%2Fgroup%2Flojban%2Fbrowse_frm%2Fmonth%2F2005-12%3F#doc_4e8d0617170ee533|gunma] * Oren has expressed concern about the [http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners/browse_thread/thread/962ace956da58b6e/cfad6ee769a5e65c|places which require abstraction] and would like the definitions to be more specific. Instead of (quality/event/state) it should read (ka/nu/za'i). !! Ambiguity * pritu and zunle have a interesting ambiguity. Is the x3 the orientation of the x1 ("which faces") or a frame of reference form the speaker's point of view? Or is it, as the notes say, "the standard of orientation for x2"? Any of these could be argued, but there are cases where any is true and the others are not. * febvi: The gloss, "x1 boils/evaporates at temperature x2 and pressure x3." is a bit like saying "x1 is a cat/mammal of breed/species x2"." (tswett, #jbopre, 6 May 2011) Boiling is the rapid vaporization of an entire liquid, whereas evaporation is a vaporization that occurs only on the surface of the liquid. Should this gloss be corrected to always refer to vaporization? !! Place inconsistencies * At jbonunsla 2011, we were comparing the sumti for ckana (bed) and stizu (chair). Compared to ckana, stizu seems underspecified. It has only an x1 place. What places do the other furniture gismu have? Did we manage to encode what amounts to a sexual joke in the definition of ckana? Or should all furniture gismu be that generous? * The word namcu [http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/browse_thread/thread/41d334a91bbc0732|doesn't include a place for the base], where logically one would assume the x2 would be "in base x2". * There are 37 gismu that name specific plants or animals. 33 of these have the definition lo broda cu broda lo jutsi. The 4 exceptions are tirxu, vidru, lanme, and civla. lanme has an x3 of flock. It should either be removed, or flock added to kanba and all of the species of flocking birds. As an example of a collective noun, if it is not removed, perhaps all of the species should be reviewed for whether they "flock." * continuing the above, tirxu has an x3 because it is overloading several feline species in a single gismu, and the x3 allows specificity. Should lujvo be created for each of these species with the coat marking, rather than having an x3 place? Conversely, should jalra, jukni, kumte, mirli, smani, toldi have an x3? They're the other gismu with overloaded (i.e, multi species) animals. (note jalra is mentioned elsewhere in this document)