History: Pronunciation guide in German

Source of version: 2 (current)

' a__h__a, __H__aar a G__a__l__a__ e b__e__sser i K__i__w__i__ o s__o__ u d__u__ y b__e__zahlen, Minut__e__ ai M__ai__ au __Au__to ei h__ey__ oi tr__äu__men ia __ja__ ie __jä__mmerlich, __je__tzt, __Jä__nner (Austrian) ii __ji__ddisch io __Jo__ghurt iu __Ju__wel ua Q__ua__lität, Q__ua__l ue Q__ue__lle ui Q__ui__tte, q__uie__ken uo Q__uo__te uu - ''Beware; some (many?) people pronounce qu- as [[kf] or [[kv] rather than [[k_w] or [[kw]. --((pne))'' *This is dialectal and at least not standard German! Shall we drop these sounds for this reason??? **Reference, please. [http://www.duden.de/schreibung/regelwerk/laut_07.html|Duden] claims that [[kv] is normative for {qu} (at least, that's the way I read the page). b __B__aum c __Sch__ere d __D__ach f __F__enster g __G__itter j __G__enie, __J__ournal, Massa__g__e k __K__eller l __L__ampe m __M__ann n __N__ase p __P__lan r __R__ache s Me__ss__er t __T__ee v __W__asser x a__ch__t z Ro__s__e, __S__onne ------ Is German [[r] acceptable for Lojban {r}? To ((pne|me)), German [[r] is a voiced version of Lojban {x} (a voiced velar fricative). *((greg.|I)) always thought of german [[r] as being a trilled velar rhotic (or whatever the phonetic parlance is) ; the french [[r] is what I would call a voiced velar fricative. I think it __is__ acceptable although many germans can probably trill their r's (the swissgermans and some austrians do anyhow). The problem comes in such combinations as {xrani}, where people who are used to hearing a trilled [[r] or an English/American [[r] will have trouble deciding what sound is which. **((pne|I))'ve heard the French [[r] described as a voiced ''uvular'' fricative, but that's nearly the same thing (only one point of articulation further back). **Having looked at the Duden page for information about {qu}, ((pne|I)) see that [[r], [[R\] and [[R] (X-SAMPA: alveolar trill, uvular trill, voiced uvular fricative) are all listed as realisations of /r/. So the voiced velar fricative isn't listed, but my /r/ sounds more velar to me than uvular. Whatever.Nick's [http://www.tlg.uci.edu/~opoudjis/Play/LojbanIPA.pdf|Lojban IPA document] lists various trills and approximants as OK for Lojban {r}, but no fricatives -- but since [[r] and [[R\] are realisations of /r/ in German according to Duden, ((pne|I)) guess using German {r} as an example is OK, even if that's not my native (North German) realisation. *((.aulun.|I)) herewith solemnly raise protest against dropping the entry /r/ in German! If not speaking French, Yiddish or Hebrew, i always have been trilling my r's. This is common in many parts of southern Germany, middle and northern Germany - so-called "waterkant" area, Austria and German speaking Switzerland. Remember that great German speaking actors (theatre/theater of course: Gustaf Gründgens, Therese Giehse etc. etc.) trilled the r-liquid. BTW, also bear in mind that there are pretty different r-liquids in the German language, according to '''where''' in a word it is articulated (which, BTW, is similar with /ch/: 'ich', 'echt', 'acht', 'Rache'). ''Only now that I realized that this discussion is totally unnecessary, given that Lojban actually allows any kind of 'r' (American, German, Italian and what have you). I dared to make an 'r' entry above ('__R__ache') - and without hints on different German pronunciations. --((.aulun.|.aulun.))''