History: Pronunciation guide in Spanish

Source of version: 2 (current)

a __a__l__a__ e __e__st__e__ i __i__r__i__s o __o__s__o__ u __u__no y - ai __ai__re au __au__to ei r__ei__no oi __oi__go ia p__ia__no ie p__ie__dra ii a__llí__ (some accents) io p__io__jo iu c__iu__dad ua c__ua__tro ue p__ue__nte ui r__ui__do uo c__uo__ta uu - b __b__ote (plosive, not fricative) c __sh__ow d __d__ato (plosive, not fricative) f __f__oto g __g__ato (plosive, not fricative) j __ll__uvia (some accents), pe__rr__o (some accents) k __k__ilo l __l__una m __m__ano n __n__ube p __p__ato r pe__r__o, pe__rr__o s __s__apo t __t__apa v nie__v__e x __j__aula z I__s__rael (voiced) ' le__j__os (some accents) ----- b/d *Following nitcion's opinion - expressed with regard to Putonghua (which I do not share) - [[b] (and still other consonants), in Spanish ought to be dropped, since they do not have an equivalent in Lojban: [[b] ist pronounced more like a bilabial [[v] rather than a plosive, {d} is not a dental stop, but kind of dental fricative(?) like in English [[then]. As nitcion surely knows, this is not totally different from modern Greek dhelta and bheta (using the Sindarin way of literation). Should we also drop [[b] and [[d] then from a Greek pronunciation list (maybe still to come)? ''((pne|I))'d say no, because (modern) Greek __has__ those sounds -- it simply spells them {mp} and {nt}, respectively.'' Yet, accepting this idea, what would be the use of all those lists? There's hardly any foreign (i.e. "non-lojban) language whose phonologic state matches exactly with Lojban. If not just for the convenience of those native speakers (giving them a faint idea of how Lojban is to be pronounced), wouldn't it be more helpful (from a scientistic aspect) to only give a list referring to the _exact_ pronunciation, which BTW exists already in the Book. I'm not sure how Spanish [[v] (vaca) is pronounced: Is it dento-labial? ''--.aulun.'' **b and v are normally a bilabial fricative, but sometimes they can be a bilabial plosive. They can also be a labiodental fricative in emphatic speech, or as a (somewhat artificial) way to distinguish v from b. If 'b' is removed from the list then 'd' and 'g' should also be removed, as they are also normally fricative, not plosive. --((xorxes)) ***A few months ago, I decided not to put up with my pronouncing everything like a gringo anymore. So I studied the pronunciation of these sounds on Shakira recordings, and my analysis is this: In Colombia, at least v/b is v intervocalically (abeja would thus be Lojban avexa) and b elsewhere (making vaca a Lojban baka). D is dh intervocalically (cadhena), before r (padhre), or word-finally (redh). It is d elsewhere (eg, de). I assume that other dialects have their own patterns. - mi'e. ((kreig.daniyl.)) c *''Also '''ll'''uvia in some accents, yes? - mi'e. ((kreig.daniyl.))'' **Yes, but only in some accents (like mine). In other accents, 'a__llí__' could be used for ''ii''. --((xorxes)) **I see nothing wrong with naming the accents and the variants; comparable English pronunication guides rabbit on incessantly (and not that enlighteningly) about British a and American o, and a dialect version is better than no version. Btw, is ''show'' nativised at all in Spanish? -- nitcion. ***I think it might be pronounced as 'chou' /tSow/ in some accents. --((xorxes)) j *''hacer el jogging'' uses an english-style /dZ/, yes? - kreig. **''hacer jogging'' is how I say it. I use /Z/ there, but I don't know how universal that is. *What about medeJIN, Colombia? -phma **It varies. I think some might say /me De 'jin/, I say /me De 'Sin/. r * ''My father, who lived in Bolivia for a year, tells me that there they pronounce perro as /perjo/. It should be clarified that this is not an acceptable variant of Lojban r. - mi'e. ((kreig.daniyl.)) **You mean Lojban 'j' there, right? I'm not sure how to represent it, it is one sound, not two, but yes, there is that variation. Perhaps it is better to give only the single 'r'. **Yes, I mean Lojban j, or if we use IPA /Z/. Good catch. - kreig. ***Would that be like the infamous Czech r-hacek (as in "Dvorak")? ****It could be, it is the voiced retroflex fricative in this table: [http://www.ling.hf.ntnu.no/ipa/full/ipachart_cons_pulm.html ] v __v__aca *''In Spain, at least, this is pronounced /baka/ rather than /vaka/. I am used to Lojban v as an intervocalic v or b. - mi'e. ((kreig.daniyl.))'' **Yes, it's complicated. I think most Spanish speakers are not aware that they pronounce intervocalic v or b any different than in other positions, and some even think that they pronounce v and b differently. I changed the example. --((xorxes))