WikiDiscuss

> Universal 19. When the general rule is that the descriptive adjective
> follows, there may be a minority of adjectives which usually precede,
> but when the general rule is that descriptive adjectives precede, there
> are no exceptions.

> 19. Seltau precede, with no exceptions.

What about {broda co brode}?

> Universal 23. If in apposition the proper noun usually precedes the
> common noun, then the language is one in which the governing noun
> precedes its dependent genitive. With much better than chance
> frequency, if the common noun usually precedes the proper noun, the
> dependent genitive precedes its governing noun.

> 23. Not clear what Lojban construction corresponds to this.

I think it would be po'u/no'u.

> Universal 24. If the relative expression precedes the noun either as
> the only construction or as an alternate construction, either the
> language is postpositional, or the adjective precedes the noun or both.

> 24. The relative expression follows.

It can precede too, as an altarnate construction: {lo poi broda ku'o brode}.
But we are still OK here because the adjective precedes the noun.

mu'o mi'e xorxes

Jorge Llambas wrote:
>> Universal 19. When the general rule is that the descriptive adjective
>> follows, there may be a minority of adjectives which usually precede,
>> but when the general rule is that descriptive adjectives precede, there
>> are no exceptions.
>
>
>> 19. Seltau precede, with no exceptions.
>
>
> What about {broda co brode}?

Good point. But the exceptions they mean are adjectives (and sometimes
particular meanings of adjectives) which precede the noun in an
otherwise NA language. Par exemple:
une bonne fourchette, a good fork

• une fourchette bonne

ma propre chemise, my own shirt
ma chemise propre, my clean shirt
There are actually some exceptions in English, so English violates this
rule. All the ones I know offhand are from French or Norman French:
attorneys general, court martial, bezant or.

>> Universal 23. If in apposition the proper noun usually precedes the
>> common noun, then the language is one in which the governing noun
>> precedes its dependent genitive. With much better than chance
>> frequency, if the common noun usually precedes the proper noun, the
>> dependent genitive precedes its governing noun.
>
>
>> 23. Not clear what Lojban construction corresponds to this.
>
>
> I think it would be po'u/no'u.

What they're talking about here is phrases like "Mecklenburg County" or
"County Kildare", "French Broad River" or "River Thames", "Adam
Mountain" or "Mount Shasta". If these are translated with compound
cmene, either can come first. In a po'u/no'u construction, either can
come first. In a poi/noi construction, the cmene comes first. I think
there's a fourth construction, but I forget what it is.

Feel free to make corrections, add examples, add more universals, etc.

Pierre

Posted by lagejyspa on Fri 23 of Mar, 2007 13:43 GMT posts: 350

>20. Lojban violates this one. The order is numeral-demonstrative-descriptive, because the descriptive word is a verb, and the demonstrative is a tense marker.

What about "levi ci labno"?

Posted by lagejyspa on Fri 23 of Mar, 2007 13:58 GMT posts: 350

> 21. Lojban doesn't have adverbs.

Yes, it does. They are the seltau in tanru selbri, or the all-but-last-two of a compound tanru of three or more terms like mutce or sutra in "le mutce narju gerku cu sutra bajra" So, they precede the "verb" (the tertau) or "adjective".

On 3/23/07, lagejyspa <wikidiscuss@lojban.org> wrote:
> Re: Lojban and linguistic universals
> >20. Lojban violates this one. The order is numeral-demonstrative-descriptive, because the descriptive word is a verb, and the demonstrative is a tense marker.
>
>
> What about "levi ci labno"?

It's ungrammatical. The construction is

quantifier gadri quantifier selbri

The tag (in this case "vi") is part of the selbri, so it's "le ci vi labno".

"le vi ci mei labno" would also be OK.

mu'o mi'e xorxes