Lojban In General

Posted by stevo on Mon 16 of Jun, 2008 06:01 GMT posts: 381

In a message dated 4/14/2008 04:22:45 AM Central Daylight Time, lojbab via
ecartis@digitalkingdom.org writes:

> But LogFlash is deemed old-fashioned by
> Lojbanists.

So I've gathered, but it's still the only program I use for vocabulary
practice. Maybe that explains my lack of profiency in Lojban.

stevo </HTML>

Quoting Bob LeChevalier <lojbab@lojban.org>:

> MorphemeAddict@wmconnect.com wrote:
> > In a message dated 4/14/2008 04:22:45 AM Central Daylight Time, lojbab
> > via ecartis@digitalkingdom.org writes:
> >
> >> But LogFlash is deemed old-fashioned by
> >> Lojbanists.
> >
> > So I've gathered, but it's still the only program I use for vocabulary
> > practice. Maybe that explains my lack of profiency in Lojban.
>
> Thanks for the vote of confidence %^)
>
> I think the old-fashioned-ness is it being a DOS program without all the
> features of newer interfaces (i.e Windows). So far as I know, no one
> has come up with, and proven, a better flash card algorithm than the one
> JCB came up.
>
> Nora and I have occasionally toyed with the idea of rewriting it as an
> exercise in learning one of the newer OOP languages. It hasn't worked
> its way up the priority list very far because we didn't know anyone cared.
>
> lojbab
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list-request@lojban.org
> with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if
> you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help.
>
>
>

I don't remember whether I said this already or not, but there's a website
called Studystack where people can make flashcards. That seems to work pretty
well for me for Latin when I take the time to actually go over my flashcards. I
also think it's possible to share the flashcard sets, though I haven't
specifically tried that. Depending on what else I end up doing, I might have
time once finals are over.

mu'omi'e skaryzgik.

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with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if
you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help.

On 4/14/08, MorphemeAddict@wmconnect.com <MorphemeAddict@wmconnect.com>
wrote:
>
>
> So I've gathered, but it's still the only program I use for vocabulary
> practice. Maybe that explains my lack of profiency in Lojban.
>
> stevo

I learned Lojban with Logflash years ago. I have fond memories of spending
hours & hours with it. I was happy to find yesterday that I can run it on
this mac mini with a dos emulator. I remember where it says about brush-up
mode "Refresh words once mastered, after a long absence", and here I am
using brush-up mode after a long absence.

It's interesting to see how my knowledge of Lojban is in so many layers.
When I see the gismu in Logflash I feel the things I've learned lately
about their structures. I feel the recent creative uses of the words, for
instance today when I see the gismu "jursa" I instantly think
of la pinpedi. But memorizing the words in Logflash is definitely at
the heart of it, before anything; Logflash was the first place I ever
saw or
thought about most of the gismu. I almost feel like it would be best for
ninpre to use the original Logflash, or at least to try it out, so they can
share in that original experience.

If you do use Logflash, I highly recommend paying attention to all of the
information it's showing you. It doesn't quiz you on the place structure or
the rafsi, but it does display them, so you can self-quiz yourself on the
structure at the same time. If "cusku" comes up for the billionth time,
instead of just quickly typing "express", also test yourself and see if you
can remember what a te cusku and a ve
cusku are. Logflash can lead to malglico, but it doesn't have to if
you're paying attention.

Incidentally, my old email (ixkey.info) is experiencing technical
difficulties, so I can be reached at mungojelly@gmail.com for now.

mu'o mi'e .bret.

Posted by rlpowell on Mon 16 of Jun, 2008 06:01 GMT posts: 14214

On Mon, Apr 14, 2008 at 09:36:18AM -0500, Adam D. Lopresto wrote:
> On Mon, 14 Apr 2008, Bob LeChevalier wrote:
>
>> MorphemeAddict@wmconnect.com wrote:
>>> In a message dated 4/14/2008 04:22:45 AM Central Daylight Time,
>>> lojbab via ecartis@digitalkingdom.org writes:
>>>
>>>> But LogFlash is deemed old-fashioned by Lojbanists.
>>>
>>> So I've gathered, but it's still the only program I use for
>>> vocabulary practice. Maybe that explains my lack of profiency
>>> in Lojban.
>>
>> Thanks for the vote of confidence %^)
>>
>> I think the old-fashioned-ness is it being a DOS program without
>> all the features of newer interfaces (i.e Windows). So far as I
>> know, no one has come up with, and proven, a better flash card
>> algorithm than the one JCB came up.
>
> I tried it early on, and abandoned it. My problem wasn't so much
> the DOS aspect (though getting it to run wasn't trivial), but the
> reliance on keywords. I knew what a tanru *was*, I even knew the
> place structure, but I couldn't remember that the keyword was
> "phrase compound". I knew what klama meant, but couldn't remember
> whether the keyword chose was "come" or "go" (since what it means
> is of course both). After a few of those (and a few where I
> couldn't remember the place structure to my satisfaction, but
> *could* remember the keyword, so it thought I new more than I
> did), I gave up on it.

Exactly: logflash has you memorize the wrong things. Furthermore,
the short-term satisfaction is *far* lower than a good
spaced-repitition algorithm. With logflash, you start getting good
(at the wrong things) months after starting. If you add cards based
on frequency of usage with a spaced-repitition algorithm, you can
get decent conversation going in a couple of weeks.

-Robin

--
Lojban Reason #17: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buffalo_buffalo
Proud Supporter of the Singularity Institute - http://singinst.org/
http://www.digitalkingdom.org/~rlpowell/ *** http://www.lojban.org/

To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list-request@lojban.org
with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if
you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help.

Posted by rlpowell on Mon 16 of Jun, 2008 06:01 GMT posts: 14214

On Mon, Apr 14, 2008 at 09:07:22PM -0400, Bob LeChevalier wrote:
>
> LogFlash has the built-in capability to change any (or all, if you
> want to do that much work) of the keywords. Of course, if you
> end up with two words with the same keyword, then recall becomes
> guesswork.

That's not the point; a good flashcard system lets the *user* decide
if they got it right, because computers are stupid. If I find
myself saying "to go" for "klama", and I change it, then on the days
that I find myself saying "come", I'm wrong. If the computer
requires that I use particular keywords, *no* solution is correct.

It's making you memorize the wrong thing, as I said.

-Robin

--
Lojban Reason #17: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buffalo_buffalo
Proud Supporter of the Singularity Institute - http://singinst.org/
http://www.digitalkingdom.org/~rlpowell/ *** http://www.lojban.org/

To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list-request@lojban.org
with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if
you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help.

Posted by lojbab on Mon 16 of Jun, 2008 06:01 GMT posts: 162

Robin Lee Powell wrote:
> On Mon, Apr 14, 2008 at 09:07:22PM -0400, Bob LeChevalier wrote:
>
>>LogFlash has the built-in capability to change any (or all, if you
>>want to do that much work) of the keywords. Of course, if you
>>end up with two words with the same keyword, then recall becomes
>>guesswork.
>
>
> That's not the point; a good flashcard system lets the *user* decide
> if they got it right, because computers are stupid. If I find
> myself saying "to go" for "klama", and I change it, then on the days
> that I find myself saying "come", I'm wrong. If the computer
> requires that I use particular keywords, *no* solution is correct.
>
> It's making you memorize the wrong thing, as I said.

Obviously a philosophical difference between us, possibly based on how
we use the language.

I promote LogFlash because it worked - 20 years later despite an abysmal
amount of actual usage in recent years, I can still pull up Lojban words
based on the keywords (and because I mastered the entire set, and not
just the ones most frequently used, I know which keywords have Lojban
words, so that if I can paraphrase an English concept in terms of
keywords, I have a start at a Lojban tanru).

Other approaches like yours might be better for someone who wants to be
able to participate in a basic conversation without a dictionary
quickly; I can not and do not say that your philosophy is wrong or bad.
The LogFlash algorithm was designed to teach rote mastery of a word
set, not conversation.

Still, if we ever update/rewrite the program, I imagine it would not be
difficult to allow the user to override the program in deciding whether
they were right or wrong. Then if you make a typo or use the wrong
keyword, but you think you really know it, you can call yourself
"correct".

I know myself well enough to know that if I had used such an option, I
probably would have cheated - it is simply too easy for "I knew that"
morphing into "I got it right" when self-testing. I prefer a stupid
computer which is entirely objective to my own subjective and
imperfectly motivated mind. (for the same reason, I would never change
the 6 repetitions rule for errors, even though I remember times when I
had to do a ridiculous amount of typing for words I "really knew". But
we put the option into the program to change the repetition count).

lojbab

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with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if
you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help.

Posted by cmacis on Mon 16 of Jun, 2008 06:01 GMT posts: 85

There is mnemosyne which does this well, and has a data file for lojban
somewhere.

> >
> > That's not the point; a good flashcard system lets the *user* decide
> > if they got it right, because computers are stupid. If I find
> > myself saying "to go" for "klama", and I change it, then on the days
> > that I find myself saying "come", I'm wrong. If the computer
> > requires that I use particular keywords, *no* solution is correct.
> >
> > It's making you memorize the wrong thing, as I said.
> >
>

Posted by eyeonus on Mon 16 of Jun, 2008 06:01 GMT posts: 86

As long as we're on the discussion of flashcards, I was wondering: with the
ever growing collection of pictures on (site I can't remember), could
someone maybe make a flashcard program/set that uses the gismu with their
associated pictures?

(Sorry Michael- I didn't see tht gmail tossed in the wrong reply-to until I
had already clicked send.)

On Tue, Apr 15, 2008 at 1:07 PM, Michael Turniansky <mturniansky@gmail.com>
wrote:

> were none exist, and slema'o are mistakenly put on gismu. In
> addition there are a few cards where it's not clear if the lojban or
> English are being queried (ex. "pi")). Still, it's a good program.
> --gejyspa
> X-archive-position: 14373
> X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0
> Sender: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org
> Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org
> X-original-sender: mturniansky@gmail.com
> Precedence: bulk
> Reply-to: lojban-list@lojban.org
> X-list: lojban-list
>
> On Tue, Apr 15, 2008 at 11:41 AM, james riley <jimr1603@gmail.com> wrote:
> > There is mnemosyne which does this well, and has a data file for lojban
> > somewhere.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > That's not the point; a good flashcard system lets the *user* decide
> > > > if they got it right, because computers are stupid. If I find
> > > > myself saying "to go" for "klama", and I change it, then on the days
> > > > that I find myself saying "come", I'm wrong. If the computer
> > > > requires that I use particular keywords, *no* solution is correct.
> > > >
> > > > It's making you memorize the wrong thing, as I said.
> > > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to
> lojban-list-request@lojban.org
> with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if
> you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help.
>
>

--
mu'o mi'e .topy'at.

.i.a'o.e'e ko klama le bende pe denpa bu

So I found this Logflash thing, and I wonder, can it be used for other things as
well? Is there a way to make wordlists for other things that would work with
this program? How hard would the modifications to the program be to make the
other things work?

mu'omi'e .skaryzgik.

To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list-request@lojban.org
with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if
you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help.

Posted by lojbab on Mon 16 of Jun, 2008 06:02 GMT posts: 162

MorphemeAddict@wmconnect.com wrote:
> In a message dated 4/14/2008 04:22:45 AM Central Daylight Time, lojbab
> via ecartis@digitalkingdom.org writes:
>
>> But LogFlash is deemed old-fashioned by
>> Lojbanists.
>
> So I've gathered, but it's still the only program I use for vocabulary
> practice. Maybe that explains my lack of profiency in Lojban.

Thanks for the vote of confidence %^)

I think the old-fashioned-ness is it being a DOS program without all the
features of newer interfaces (i.e Windows). So far as I know, no one
has come up with, and proven, a better flash card algorithm than the one
JCB came up.

Nora and I have occasionally toyed with the idea of rewriting it as an
exercise in learning one of the newer OOP languages. It hasn't worked
its way up the priority list very far because we didn't know anyone cared.

lojbab

To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list-request@lojban.org
with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if
you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help.

On 4/14/08, MorphemeAddict@wmconnect.com <MorphemeAddict@wmconnect.com>
wrote:
>
>
> So I've gathered, but it's still the only program I use for vocabulary
> practice. Maybe that explains my lack of profiency in Lojban.
>
> stevo

I learned Lojban with Logflash years ago. I have fond memories of spending
hours & hours with it. I was happy to find yesterday that I can run it on
this mac mini with a dos emulator. I remember where it says about brush-up
mode "Refresh words once mastered, after a long absence", and here I am
using brush-up mode after a long absence.

It's interesting to see how my knowledge of Lojban is in so many layers.
When I see the gismu in Logflash I feel the things I've learned lately
about their structures. I feel the recent creative uses of the words, for
instance today when I see the gismu "jursa" I instantly think
of la pinpedi. But memorizing the words in Logflash is definitely at
the heart of it, before anything; Logflash was the first place I ever
saw or
thought about most of the gismu. I almost feel like it would be best for
ninpre to use the original Logflash, or at least to try it out, so they can
share in that original experience.

If you do use Logflash, I highly recommend paying attention to all of the
information it's showing you. It doesn't quiz you on the place structure or
the rafsi, but it does display them, so you can self-quiz yourself on the
structure at the same time. If "cusku" comes up for the billionth time,
instead of just quickly typing "express", also test yourself and see if you
can remember what a te cusku and a ve
cusku are. Logflash can lead to malglico, but it doesn't have to if
you're paying attention.

Incidentally, my old email (ixkey.info) is experiencing technical
difficulties, so I can be reached at mungojelly@gmail.com for now.

mu'o mi'e .bret.

Posted by tijlan on Mon 16 of Jun, 2008 06:02 GMT posts: 22

On Mon, Apr 14, 2008 at 10:44 PM, Brett Williams <mungojelly@gmail.com> wrote:
> I learned Lojban with Logflash years ago. I have fond memories of spending
> hours & hours with it. I was happy to find yesterday that I can run it on
> this mac mini with a dos emulator. I remember where it says about brush-up
> mode "Refresh words once mastered, after a long absence", and here I am
> using brush-up mode after a long absence.
>
> It's interesting to see how my knowledge of Lojban is in so many layers.
> When I see the gismu in Logflash I feel the things I've learned lately about
> their structures. I feel the recent creative uses of the words, for
> instance today when I see the gismu "jursa" I instantly think of la pinpedi.
> But memorizing the words in Logflash is definitely at the heart of it,
> before anything; Logflash was the first place I ever saw or thought about
> most of the gismu. I almost feel like it would be best for ninpre to use
> the original Logflash, or at least to try it out, so they can share in that
> original experience.
>
> If you do use Logflash, I highly recommend paying attention to all of the
> information it's showing you. It doesn't quiz you on the place structure or
> the rafsi, but it does display them, so you can self-quiz yourself on the
> structure at the same time. If "cusku" comes up for the billionth time,
> instead of just quickly typing "express", also test yourself and see if you
> can remember what a te cusku and a ve cusku are. Logflash can lead to
> malglico, but it doesn't have to if you're paying attention.
>
> Incidentally, my old email (ixkey.info) is experiencing technical
> difficulties, so I can be reached at mungojelly@gmail.com for now.
>
> mu'o mi'e .bret.
>

Never tried LogFlash. Is it better than jMemorize, which I find quite helpful?

mu'o mi'e tijlan

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with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if
you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help.

On Mon, 14 Apr 2008, Bob LeChevalier wrote:

> MorphemeAddict@wmconnect.com wrote:
>> In a message dated 4/14/2008 04:22:45 AM Central Daylight Time, lojbab via
>> ecartis@digitalkingdom.org writes:
>>
>>> But LogFlash is deemed old-fashioned by
>>> Lojbanists.
>>
>> So I've gathered, but it's still the only program I use for vocabulary
>> practice. Maybe that explains my lack of profiency in Lojban.
>
> Thanks for the vote of confidence %^)
>
> I think the old-fashioned-ness is it being a DOS program without all the
> features of newer interfaces (i.e Windows). So far as I know, no one has
> come up with, and proven, a better flash card algorithm than the one JCB came
> up.

I tried it early on, and abandoned it. My problem wasn't so much the DOS
aspect (though getting it to run wasn't trivial), but the reliance on
keywords. I knew what a tanru *was*, I even knew the place structure, but I
couldn't remember that the keyword was "phrase compound". I knew what klama
meant, but couldn't remember whether the keyword chose was "come" or "go"
(since what it means is of course both). After a few of those (and a few
where I couldn't remember the place structure to my satisfaction, but *could*
remember the keyword, so it thought I new more than I did), I gave up on it.

> Nora and I have occasionally toyed with the idea of rewriting it as an
> exercise in learning one of the newer OOP languages. It hasn't worked its
> way up the priority list very far because we didn't know anyone cared.

--
Adam Lopresto
http://cec.wustl.edu/~adam/

If Barbie is so popular, why do you have to *buy* her friends?

To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list-request@lojban.org
with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if
you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help.

Posted by lojbab on Mon 16 of Jun, 2008 06:02 GMT posts: 162

Adam D. Lopresto wrote:
> I tried it early on, and abandoned it. My problem wasn't so much the DOS
> aspect (though getting it to run wasn't trivial), but the reliance on
> keywords. I knew what a tanru *was*, I even knew the place structure,
> but I
> couldn't remember that the keyword was "phrase compound". I knew what
> klama
> meant, but couldn't remember whether the keyword chose was "come" or "go"
> (since what it means is of course both).

The meaning is either, but the sound match clearly indicate klama
->come. English speakers definitely have it better in that regard than
Russian or Arabic - the sound weightings were sufficient that the
keyword/Lojban similarity can be easily recognized.

After a few of those (and a few
> where I couldn't remember the place structure to my satisfaction, but
> *could*
> remember the keyword, so it thought I new more than I did), I gave up on
> it.

LogFlash has the built-in capability to change any (or all, if you want
to do that much work) of the keywords. Of course, if you end up with
two words with the same keyword, then recall becomes guesswork.

lojbab

To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list-request@lojban.org
with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if
you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help.

Posted by rlpowell on Mon 16 of Jun, 2008 06:02 GMT posts: 14214

On Mon, Apr 14, 2008 at 09:07:22PM -0400, Bob LeChevalier wrote:
>
> LogFlash has the built-in capability to change any (or all, if you
> want to do that much work) of the keywords. Of course, if you
> end up with two words with the same keyword, then recall becomes
> guesswork.

That's not the point; a good flashcard system lets the *user* decide
if they got it right, because computers are stupid. If I find
myself saying "to go" for "klama", and I change it, then on the days
that I find myself saying "come", I'm wrong. If the computer
requires that I use particular keywords, *no* solution is correct.

It's making you memorize the wrong thing, as I said.

-Robin

--
Lojban Reason #17: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buffalo_buffalo
Proud Supporter of the Singularity Institute - http://singinst.org/
http://www.digitalkingdom.org/~rlpowell/ *** http://www.lojban.org/

To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list-request@lojban.org
with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if
you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help.

Posted by eyeonus on Mon 16 of Jun, 2008 06:02 GMT posts: 86

>
> (site I can't remember)
>
http://jbo.wikipedia.org/wiki/pixra_liste_loi_gismu

--
mu'o mi'e .topy'at.

.i.a'o.e'e ko klama le bende pe denpa bu

So I found this Logflash thing, and I wonder, can it be used for other things as
well? Is there a way to make wordlists for other things that would work with
this program? How hard would the modifications to the program be to make the
other things work?

mu'omi'e .skaryzgik.

To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list-request@lojban.org
with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if
you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help.

Posted by lojbab on Mon 16 of Jun, 2008 06:02 GMT posts: 162

mls1@rice.edu wrote:
> So I found this Logflash thing, and I wonder, can it be used for other things as
> well? Is there a way to make wordlists for other things that would work with
> this program? How hard would the modifications to the program be to make the
> other things work?

We have an old pre-objects Turbo Pascal program that will create a
wordlist file from a plaintext in proper format, but since I haven't
used it in a dozen years, I have no idea how to run it anymore (I don't
believe it was especially difficult, so the problem isn't
insurmountable, once I found the right executable.)

Proper format means columnated exactly as the published fixed-column
gismu list, with the top line serving as control for the program,
telling it how many words there are, and a couple of other things.

The keywords in each language have to be unique.

When I was learning Russian I set up a Russian English LogFlash file
with the first couple of chapters of vocabulary, but I found it so hard
to learn a Russian keyset that I gave up on typing Russian. We also
used LogFlash as an English vocabulary trainer for our kids in school,
but that proved very difficult to make good files for.

Of course there also is LogFlash 2 and LogFlash 3 that teach the cmavo
and the rafsi (and eventually lujvo-making if we released that version -
I can't recall). I don't know if anyone other than my wife and I ever
used either program though.

lojbab

To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list-request@lojban.org
with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if
you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help.

I vote for the lojban sets on rememberize.com. (although there are a
few incorect cards in there, rafsi are there were none exist, and
slema'o are mistakenly put on gismu. In addition there are a few cards
where it's not clear if the lojban or English are being queried (ex.
"pi")). Still, it's a good program. --gejyspa

On Tue, Apr 15, 2008 at 11:41 AM, james riley <jimr1603@gmail.com> wrote:
> There is mnemosyne which does this well, and has a data file for lojban
> somewhere.
>
>
>
>
> >
> > >
> > >
> > > That's not the point; a good flashcard system lets the *user* decide
> > > if they got it right, because computers are stupid. If I find
> > > myself saying "to go" for "klama", and I change it, then on the days
> > > that I find myself saying "come", I'm wrong. If the computer
> > > requires that I use particular keywords, *no* solution is correct.
> > >
> > > It's making you memorize the wrong thing, as I said.
> > >
> >
>
>

To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list-request@lojban.org
with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if
you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help.