Lojban In General

Lojban In General


On Wed, May 28, 2008 at 7:21 PM, Jorge Llambías <jjllambias@gmail.com> wrote:
> BTW, here is a (complete, I think) list of the gismu that have place
> structures like that of {cnino} (not counting :
>
> cfipu: x1 confuses/baffles x2 due to property x3.
> cizra: x1 is strange/weird/deviant/bizarre/odd to x2 in property x3.
> cnino: x1 is new/unfamiliar/novel to x2 in poperty x3 by standard x4.
> dicra: x1 interrupts/stops/halts x2 due to property x3.
> fange: x1 is alien/foreign/unfamiliar to x2 in property x3.
> mansa: x1 satisfies x2 in property x3.
> melbi: x1 is beautiful/pleasant to x2 in property x3 by standard x4.
> slabu: x1 is old/familiar/well-known to x2 in property x3 by standard x4.
> trina: x1 attracts/appeals to/lures x2 with property x3.
> vajni: x1 is important/significant to x2 in property x3.
> xajmi: x1 is funny/comical to x2 in property x3.
> zdile: x1 is amusing/entertaining to x2 in property x3.
> zunti: x1 interferes with/hinders/disrupts x2 due to property x3.
>
> (Any others?)
>
> There are some others that could have had this structure but don't
> (dirba, fanza, misno, pluka, spaji, xamgu, xlali, ...) but they are harder
> to search for systematically so I don't attempt to make a complete list.

It's funny, but I always wondered the same about (similar scale,
but opposite end) "xebni". Usually one has a reason for hating
something, and it often comes up in utterances (2.08 MGh (million
Google hits) for "hate * because"). It seems odd that lojban doesn't
have a dedicated tersu'i for it. But I never wondered about it
"aloud" to the lojbo cecmu, because I figured there is no point, since
the gi'uste has been baselined for the foreseeable future .

--gejyspa


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posts: 42

.coi

I was wondering why no ka abstraction for nelci exists.

Wouldn't it be handy to be able use nelci more specific?
Like: {do cnino mi le ka xunre} (CLL:11:4:3)
You are-new to-me in-the-quality-of-the property-of being-red
You are new to me in redness

With nelci nelci:
(assuming:)
nelci: x1 is fond of/likes/has a taste for
x2 (object/state) in feature x3 (ka)

{mi nelci do le ka melbi}
I like you in-the-quality-of-the property-of being-beautiful
I like you being beautiful

{mi nelci le skina le ka cinri pluja}
I like the movie in-the-quality-of-the property-of
being-interestingly-complex

I like the movie being interestingly complex

The alternatives, using the existing language features, we came up with on IRC
were rather long winded in my opinion:

- using a za'i state-abstraction incorporating the property directly with
nelci
{mi nelci le za'i do melbi}
- using mu'i to state a motive (and again using za'i)
{mi nelci do mu'i le za'i do melbi}
- using some cmavo of selma'o pe {mi nelci le melbi pe do} (I think pe is too
general here.. anyways)
- or using be {mi nelci le melbi be fa do} (which is similar)

It's nelci's similarity to cnino making me think it would be be nice to have a
ka x3 for nelci.
Every single one of the workarounds stated above could be used to express
CLL:11:4:3 and would have to be used if cnino had no ka x3.

What's your opionion on having a ka x3 for nelci?
--
mu'o mi'e nam


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On 5/27/08, nam <eldrikdo@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I was wondering why no ka abstraction for nelci exists.

There aren't really any answers to "why" questions about
place structures. Many place structures were inherited
directly from Loglan and many were modified, but there wasn't
usually any systematic treatment.

> {mi nelci do le ka melbi}
>
> {mi nelci le skina le ka cinri pluja}

Those are in fact grammatical, and more or less equivalent to:

{mi nelci do do'e le ka melbi}

{mi nelci le skina do'e le ka cinri pluja}

It is always possible to add sumti in undefined places, and the
meaning in this case would probably be understood just as you
want it (at least I can't think of any other interpretation).

> It's nelci's similarity to cnino making me think it would be be nice to have a
> ka x3 for nelci.

I would say {pluka} is more similar to {cnino}, because of the order
object-observer. {mansa}, {melbi}, {trina} are other similar examples.
The x3 properties in these are properties of the x1, while for {nelci}
it would be a property of the x2.

In general, I think it would be preferrable to have less places defined
rather than more. For example, using:

{le skina cu pluka mi lo ka cinri pluja}

is somewhat awkward because of that "under conditions" place
defined for {pluka}. Why {pluka} has an "under conditions x3" place
rather than a "because of property x3" place is another of those
unanswerable questions.

mu'o mi'e xorxes


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BTW, here is a (complete, I think) list of the gismu that have place
structures like that of {cnino} (not counting :

cfipu: x1 confuses/baffles x2 due to property x3.
cizra: x1 is strange/weird/deviant/bizarre/odd to x2 in property x3.
cnino: x1 is new/unfamiliar/novel to x2 in poperty x3 by standard x4.
dicra: x1 interrupts/stops/halts x2 due to property x3.
fange: x1 is alien/foreign/unfamiliar to x2 in property x3.
mansa: x1 satisfies x2 in property x3.
melbi: x1 is beautiful/pleasant to x2 in property x3 by standard x4.
slabu: x1 is old/familiar/well-known to x2 in property x3 by standard x4.
trina: x1 attracts/appeals to/lures x2 with property x3.
vajni: x1 is important/significant to x2 in property x3.
xajmi: x1 is funny/comical to x2 in property x3.
zdile: x1 is amusing/entertaining to x2 in property x3.
zunti: x1 interferes with/hinders/disrupts x2 due to property x3.

(Any others?)

There are some others that could have had this structure but don't
(dirba, fanza, misno, pluka, spaji, xamgu, xlali, ...) but they are harder
to search for systematically so I don't attempt to make a complete list.

mu'o mi'e xorxes


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with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if
you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help.