Lojban In General

Posted by Lakmir. on Thu 21 of Aug, 2008 09:56 GMT posts: 21

.i coi ro jbopre

Those of you who aren't interested in pursuing this line of
investigation will be sick of hearing my bleating voice by now, and
for that I apologise. Others, however, may be interested to hear I've
been working hard since srilermorna, and I think I'm on to somthing.

Although srilermorna was kind of successful in terms of the goals I
set for it - mainly prettiness - someone valuably pointed out that it
really offered nothing above what latin does in terms of suitability
for writing Lojban - essentially, it is a character map onto latin.

I set about creating a system for which the goal was lojbanicness - it
must offer features which correspond to the morphology and philosophy
of lojban, while remaining legible and versatile.

I've ended up with a vowel-diacritic system with a strong resemblance
to the proposals to use Tengwar, but with a few key differences which
allow some optimisation, better readibility and (hopefully) some
uniquely lojban feel.

Criticism is welcome and depended upon - either on this list, at the
tiki page for the current revision, or at the thread in the Ideas
board on jbotcan. All suggestions will be documented at any or all of
these places.

There is no name yet. Suggestions welcome.

Tiki: http://www.lojban.org/tiki/tiki-index.php?page=Lakmir.%27s%20Vowel-Diacritic%20Orthography
jbotcan: http://www.jbotcan.org/ideas/res/207.html

.i ki'e rodo jundi
mu'o

Also, yeah, i realise i forgot to put "hungry" in the english for the
last example. Cant be bothered changing it.

To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list-request@lojban.org
with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if
you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help.

Posted by seryf on Thu 21 of Aug, 2008 17:29 GMT posts: 71

i have been waiting long for the upgrade to your system. i like it. it looks good and unique and potentially usable. i would not learn it until becoming fluent in lojban, but would happily learn it (or its modified version if there be) when i become more fluent. very well done!

-seryf

---Original Message---
From: LakMeer Kravid <lakmeerkravid@gmail.com>
To: lojban-list@lojban.org
Sent: Thu, 21 Aug 2008 3:53 am
Subject: lojban New, more Lojbanic Lojban orthography

.i coi ro jbopre

Those of you who aren't interested in pursuing this line of
investigation will be sick of hearing my bleating voice by now, and
for that I apologise. Others, however, may be interested to hear I've
been working hard since srilermorna, and I think I'm on to somthing.

Although srilermorna was kind of successful in terms of the goals I
set for it - mainly prettiness - someone valuably pointed out that it
really offered nothing above what latin does in terms of suitability
for writing Lojban - essentially, it is a character map onto latin.

I set about creating a system for which the goal was lojbanicness - it
must offer features which correspond to the morphology and philosophy
of lojban, while remaining legible and versatile.

I've ended up with a vowel-diacritic system with a strong resemblance
to the proposals to use Tengwar, but with a few key differences which
allow some optimisation, better readibility and (hopefully) some
uniquely lojban feel.

Criticism is welcome and depended upon - either on this list, at the
tiki page for the current revision, or at the thread in the Ideas
board on jbotcan. All suggestions will be documented at any or all of
these places.

There is no name yet. Suggestions welcome.

Tiki: http://www.lojban.org/tiki/tiki-index.php?page=Lakmir.%27s%20Vowel-Diacritic%20Orthography
jbotcan: http://www.jbotcan.org/ideas/res/207.html

.i ki'e rodo jundi
mu'o

Also, yeah, i realise i forgot to put "hungry" in the english for the
last example. Cant be bothered changing it.

To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list-request@lojban.org
with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if
you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help.

Posted by namor on Fri 12 of Sep, 2008 04:00 GMT posts: 42

coi

I'm currently writing a transcription utility for the new orthography in Java.

The focus lies on the java interface, which is pretty small.
Once completed, the library should be easily usable from other java
applications.

A small interface to camxes is also provided.
(Validating Lojban texts and producing a parse-tree-string)

Anyone interested can try the .jar file, with a simple GUI included, attached
at the bottom of this site,
it's very pre-alpha though:

http://www.lojban.org/tiki/tiki-editpage.php?page=Lakmir.%27s%20Vowel-
Diacritic%20Orthography

Any comments and suggestions are welcome.

mu'o mi'e nam

On Thursday 21 August 2008 11:53:25 LakMeer Kravid wrote:
> .i coi ro jbopre
>
> Those of you who aren't interested in pursuing this line of
> investigation will be sick of hearing my bleating voice by now, and
> for that I apologise. Others, however, may be interested to hear I've
> been working hard since srilermorna, and I think I'm on to somthing.
>
> Although srilermorna was kind of successful in terms of the goals I
> set for it - mainly prettiness - someone valuably pointed out that it
> really offered nothing above what latin does in terms of suitability
> for writing Lojban - essentially, it is a character map onto latin.
>
> I set about creating a system for which the goal was lojbanicness - it
> must offer features which correspond to the morphology and philosophy
> of lojban, while remaining legible and versatile.
>
> I've ended up with a vowel-diacritic system with a strong resemblance
> to the proposals to use Tengwar, but with a few key differences which
> allow some optimisation, better readibility and (hopefully) some
> uniquely lojban feel.
>
> Criticism is welcome and depended upon - either on this list, at the
> tiki page for the current revision, or at the thread in the Ideas
> board on jbotcan. All suggestions will be documented at any or all of
> these places.
>
> There is no name yet. Suggestions welcome.
>
> Tiki:
> http://www.lojban.org/tiki/tiki-index.php?page=Lakmir.%27s%20Vowel-Diacriti
>c%20Orthography jbotcan: http://www.jbotcan.org/ideas/res/207.html
>
> .i ki'e rodo jundi
> mu'o
>
> Also, yeah, i realise i forgot to put "hungry" in the english for the
> last example. Cant be bothered changing it.
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list-request@lojban.org
> with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if
> you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help.

To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list-request@lojban.org
with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if
you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help.

Posted by jozis. on Thu 02 of Oct, 2008 23:26 GMT posts: 5

> Use this thread to discuss the New, more Lojbanic Lojban orthography page.

I can't help noticing that the letter representing the Latin-orthography comma seems to be superfluous. The comma never appears except in cmene, which use the system of full-sized vowel letters, which you have carefully designed to obviate the need for the comma entirely.

Posted by jozis. on Thu 02 of Oct, 2008 23:33 GMT posts: 5

I do really like the system though. One problem I have with the Latin orthography is that through contact with other languages using the Latin alphabet, I have built up certain expectations about what Latin-alphabet text ought to look like, and Latin-orthography Lojban looks somewhat jarring as a result. Your abjad is both prettier and more Lojbanic than the Latin in my opinion.

Sorry to spam up the boards; I forgot t

Posted by jozis. on Thu 02 of Oct, 2008 23:33 GMT posts: 5

I do really like the system though. One problem I have with the Latin orthography is that through contact with other languages using the Latin alphabet, I have built up certain expectations about what Latin-alphabet text ought to look like, and Latin-orthography Lojban looks somewhat jarring as a result. Your abjad is both prettier and more Lojbanic than the Latin in my opinion.

Sorry to spam up the boards; I forgot to include this in my previous post.

Posted by namor on Thu 02 of Oct, 2008 23:53 GMT posts: 42

On Friday 03 October 2008 01:33:50 jozis. wrote:
> alphabet, I have built up certain expectations about what Latin-alphabet
> text ought to look like, and Latin-orthography Lojban looks somewhat
> jarring as a result. Your abjad is both prettier and more Lojbanic than the
> Latin in my opinion.

I agree. Lojban in the Latin alphabet looks ugly, like some bash programming
language somewhat.

In addition to the beauty aspect, I find it very annoying that I got used to
certain sounds of latin glyphs. I habitually confuse the "s" with the "z",
as they are that that way in German, or the "c" and "k"..

--

mu'o mi'e nam

Posted by pdf23ds on Fri 03 of Oct, 2008 00:04 GMT posts: 143

On Thu, Oct 2, 2008 at 18:51, Roman Naumann <eldrikdo@gmail.com> wrote:
> I agree. Lojban in the Latin alphabet looks ugly, like some bash programming
> language somewhat.

Oh my. I don't think Lojban in latin looks wonderful or anything, but
seriously? Compared to bash, Lojban in latin is like a Van Gogh
painting.

> In addition to the beauty aspect, I find it very annoying that I got used to
> certain sounds of latin glyphs. I habitually confuse the "s" with the "z",

The sounds are the same in Lojban as in English, so I never had a
problem, but...

> as they are that that way in German, or the "c" and "k"..

I learned probably a couple hundred words in Lojban before realizing
that "c" wasn't pronounced like either "k" or "s". It took me a *long*
time to unlearn all that. You have to unlearn the individual words
separately, too.

Chris Capel
--
"What is it like to be a bat? What is it like to bat a bee? What is it
like to be a bee being batted? What is it like to be a batted bee?"
-- The Mind's I (Hofstadter, Dennet)

To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list-request@lojban.org
with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if
you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help.

Posted by namor on Fri 03 of Oct, 2008 00:24 GMT posts: 42

On Friday 03 October 2008 02:01:26 Chris Capel wrote:
> Oh my. I don't think Lojban in latin looks wonderful or anything, but
> seriously? Compared to bash, Lojban in latin is like a Van Gogh
> painting.

u'i
Though, I really think it's very ugly..
IMHO it looks even worse than most programming langs..
for it lacks the formatting-signs "( )" "{ }" "" and indentation,
but still has a clear grouping. Mathematical expressions in Lojban
are funny to read, if there are cmavo for ( and )..

With zbalermorna, this isn't perfect, but at least, most cmavo form a single
glyph which is way easier to discern in a scoping-chaos bridi (or complex
math-expression).

> I learned probably a couple hundred words in Lojban before realizing
> that "c" wasn't pronounced like either "k" or "s". It took me a *long*
> time to unlearn all that. You have to unlearn the individual words
> separately, too.

Yes, I noticed that too, you have to relearn the correct pronunciation for
words individually..
However, when I first used Tengwar to read some Lojban, I also noticed
once or twice that the phoneme-glyph I just read wasn't the sound I had in
mind, and relearned the word this way.

> Chris Capel

mu'o mi'e nam

Posted by tulcod on Fri 03 of Oct, 2008 11:09 GMT posts: 9

On 10/3/08, Roman Naumann <eldrikdo@gmail.com> wrote:

> Though, I really think it's very ugly..
>
> IMHO it looks even worse than most programming langs..
>
> for it lacks the formatting-signs "( )" "{ }" "" and indentation,
>
> but still has a clear grouping. Mathematical expressions in Lojban
>
> are funny to read, if there are cmavo for ( and )..
>

but then again, the actual machinecode doesn't contain readable ()[]{}
either (except for the "coincidental" cases). everything is a command out
there.

my $0.02

Posted by namor on Fri 03 of Oct, 2008 11:24 GMT posts: 42

On Friday 03 October 2008 13:00:33 Auke Booij wrote:
> but then again, the actual machinecode doesn't contain readable ()[]{}
> either (except for the "coincidental" cases). everything is a command out
> there.

True, but we were discussing about beauty (and readability).
Machine code is neither; so machine code was certainly
not meant to be included in "most programming lang(uage)s"
when I said "it (lojban) looks even worse than most programming langs".

--

mu'o mi'e nam