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    • x2 of klani

    Posted by arj on Sun 07 of Dec, 2008 20:13 GMT posts: 953

    I'm cleaning up lujvo definitions in Jbovlaste, and today, the turn has come to {muclai}, which in noralujv is defined thus:

    smuci+klani: spoonful: x1 = klani1 (quantity), x2 = smuci1 (spoon) = klani2 (quantifier), x3 = klani3 (scale of quantity)

    klani2 is a stumbling block to me, as it is not obvious what the x2 in the gismu definitions refers to:
    x1 is a quantity quantified/measured/enumerated by x2 (quantifier) on scale x3 (si'o)

    WordNet lists two senses of "quantifier":
    1. (logic) a word (such as 'some' or 'all' or 'no') that binds the variables in a logical proposition
    2. (grammar) a word that expresses a quantity (as 'fifteen' or 'many')

    Neither of these seem appropriate.

    Similarly, the dictionary entries for "quantify", measure and enumerate all seem to have exclusively agentive meanings, except for sense 27 of "measure" in Random House Unabridged Dictionary: "to serve as the measure of: Her sacrifices measure the degree of her love." Is this relevant?

    .i le klani be le jdini poi do dunda cu .e'a jai se jdice do (N. Nicholas, What is Lojban?)
    "You are free to decide the amount ??? money that you donate." (literal translation by me)
    "Contributions can be as small or as great as you like" (canonical translation by N. Nicholas)

    Now, what can be learnt from usage, if anything? Let us examine the following instances.
    i mo'a da kulnu gismu ije le se klani be loi gismu tarmi cu banzu le nu finti lo selsumji gismu
    "There are too few cultural gismu, and the ??? of gismu forms go beyond the invention of original gismu."

    doi mamta do djuno xu lo du'u lo denpesxu poi nenri pa tubnu cu klani makau
    "Mother, do you know what is the ??? of toothpaste that is in one tube?"

    ni'o re mai lo ciska kantu sinxa cu klani li re mu (J. J. Llambías, la ckuzda pe la babel)
    "2. The amount of discrete writing symbols ??? 25"

    So in general, it seems that users of Lojban believe that what goes into one of the places is the description of some substance, and another of the places is some indication of how much there is of that substance. But they don't seem to agree on which is which — in the first example, it seems that the quantity goes into the x1 and the mass of stuff goes into x2, while in the other examples, the situation is reversed.

    Furthermore, what type of sumti can go into the x2? Is it a number? (Jorge's example is the only one that fills in the x2 explicitly.) But if it is a number, how can it also be a spoon, as the place structure of {muclai} seems to imply?

    --
    Arnt Richard Johansen http://arj.nvg.org/
    Information wants to be anthropomorphized!


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    Posted by PierreAbbat on Sun 07 of Dec, 2008 20:43 GMT posts: 324

    On Sunday 07 December 2008 15:09:48 Arnt Richard Johansen wrote:
    > I'm cleaning up lujvo definitions in Jbovlaste, and today, the turn has
    > come to {muclai}, which in noralujv is defined thus:
    >
    > smuci+klani: spoonful: x1 = klani1 (quantity), x2 = smuci1 (spoon) =
    > klani2 (quantifier), x3 = klani3 (scale of quantity)

    li'o

    > So in general, it seems that users of Lojban believe that what goes into
    > one of the places is the description of some substance, and another of the
    > places is some indication of how much there is of that substance. But they
    > don't seem to agree on which is which — in the first example, it seems
    > that the quantity goes into the x1 and the mass of stuff goes into x2,
    > while in the other examples, the situation is reversed.

    The first example has {se klani}.

    > Furthermore, what type of sumti can go into the x2? Is it a number?
    > (Jorge's example is the only one that fills in the x2 explicitly.) But if
    > it is a number, how can it also be a spoon, as the place structure of
    > {muclai} seems to imply?

    Looks like an error when compiling the list. I say it's a number, as in this
    example: {loi tcatymuclai be li 1/3 be'o ke zingibero purmo}, from the
    terjukpa page.

    Pierre


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    Posted by pdf23ds on Sun 07 of Dec, 2008 20:47 GMT posts: 143
    On Sun, Dec 7, 2008 at 14:41, Pierre Abbat <phma@phma.optus.nu> wrote:

    > On Sunday 07 December 2008 15:09:48 Arnt Richard Johansen wrote:
    >> Furthermore, what type of sumti can go into the x2? Is it a number?
    >> (Jorge's example is the only one that fills in the x2 explicitly.) But if
    >> it is a number, how can it also be a spoon, as the place structure of
    >> {muclai} seems to imply?
    >
    > Looks like an error when compiling the list. I say it's a number, as in this
    > example: {loi tcatymuclai be li 1/3 be'o ke zingibero purmo}, from the
    > terjukpa page.

    I'd say its being a number is inconsistent with the definition in the
    gismu list. It seems to me what "quantifier" means is "that which is
    doing the quantifying/measuring", i.e. a measuring cup or spoon. By
    the definition, it seems like the first place should be for the
    number, and that's it's missing a place for what's being measured.
    I.e., the definition as given makes no sense.

    Chris Capel
    --
    "What is it like to be a bat? What is it like to bat a bee? What is it
    like to be a bee being batted? What is it like to be a batted bee?"
    -- The Mind's I (Hofstadter, Dennet)


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    Posted by arj on Sun 07 of Dec, 2008 21:53 GMT posts: 953

    On Sun, Dec 07, 2008 at 02:45:08PM -0600, Chris Capel wrote:

    > On Sun, Dec 7, 2008 at 14:41, Pierre Abbat <phma@phma.optus.nu> wrote:

    > > On Sunday 07 December 2008 15:09:48 Arnt Richard Johansen wrote:
    > >> Furthermore, what type of sumti can go into the x2? Is it a number?
    > >> (Jorge's example is the only one that fills in the x2 explicitly.) But if
    > >> it is a number, how can it also be a spoon, as the place structure of
    > >> {muclai} seems to imply?
    > >
    > > Looks like an error when compiling the list. I say it's a number, as in this
    > > example: {loi tcatymuclai be li 1/3 be'o ke zingibero purmo}, from the
    > > terjukpa page.
    >
    > I'd say its being a number is inconsistent with the definition in the
    > gismu list. It seems to me what "quantifier" means is "that which is
    > doing the quantifying/measuring", i.e. a measuring cup or spoon. By
    > the definition, it seems like the first place should be for the
    > number, and that's it's missing a place for what's being measured.
    > I.e., the definition as given makes no sense.

    Part of the problem may be that the English word "quantity" is ambiguous between how much there is of something, and that something itself. In the sentence "the quantity of courses is large", you cannot substitute "quantity of courses" with "courses" without creating nonsense. On the other hand, if "John owns a large quantity of tea" is true, "John owns some tea" must also be true.

    --
    Arnt Richard Johansen http://arj.nvg.org/
    Keyboard: The Ultimate Input Device


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    Posted by "=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jorge_Llamb=EDas?=" on Sun 07 of Dec, 2008 22:05 GMT

    On Sun, Dec 7, 2008 at 5:09 PM, Arnt Richard Johansen <arj@nvg.org> wrote:
    >
    > klani2 is a stumbling block to me, as it is not obvious what the x2 in the gismu definitions refers to:
    > x1 is a quantity quantified/measured/enumerated by x2 (quantifier) on scale x3 (si'o)
    >
    > WordNet lists two senses of "quantifier":
    > 1. (logic) a word (such as 'some' or 'all' or 'no') that binds the variables in a logical proposition
    > 2. (grammar) a word that expresses a quantity (as 'fifteen' or 'many')
    >
    > Neither of these seem appropriate.

    But both correspond to the cmavo of PA, and that's how "quantifier" is
    always used in Lojban.

    As I understand it, {klani} is the general case of
    mitre/litce/grake/cacra/etc. all of which use a number (or other
    quantifier) in x2.

    > So in general, it seems that users of Lojban believe that what goes into one of the places is the description of some substance, and another of the places is some indication of how much there is of that substance.

    Like all measure words.

    > But they don't seem to agree on which is which — in the first example, it seems that the quantity goes into the x1 and the mass of stuff goes into x2, while in the other examples, the situation is reversed.

    I think the first was just an oversight. The general rule for measure
    words is to have the stuff in x1 and the number in x2.

    > Furthermore, what type of sumti can go into the x2? Is it a number? (Jorge's example is the only one that fills in the x2 explicitly.) But if it is a number, how can it also be a spoon, as the place structure of {muclai} seems to imply?

    It can't. The spoon should define the scale somehow.

    mu'o mi'e xorxes


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    Posted by lagejyspa on Tue 09 of Dec, 2008 13:02 GMT posts: 350

    On Sun, Dec 7, 2008 at 5:04 PM, Jorge Llambías <jjllambias@gmail.com> wrote:

    > On Sun, Dec 7, 2008 at 5:09 PM, Arnt Richard Johansen <arj@nvg.org> wrote:
    > >
    > smuci+klani: spoonful: x1 = klani1 (quantity), x2 = smuci1 (spoon) =
    > klani2 (quantifier), x3 = klani3 (scale of quantity)
    >

    Indeed, I find myself in one of my rare instances of agreeing with
    xorxes. :-) The noralujv definition of muclai is clearly incorrect. klani
    is used in this way, AFAIK:

    le solji cu klani li revo lo si'o solji terxu'i
    The gold (k1) is 24 (k2) karat. (k3)

    It follows that muclai should be something like:
    (substance) x1=k1 is x2=k2 (quantifier (li)) spoonfuls in quantity on the
    scale of size of spoons (si'o) x3=k3(=s1??)

    --gejyspa

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