Lojban In General

Lojban In General


Newbie questions

posts: 1

Hi all,

I'm a total n00b to Lojban, so I apologize in advance for any questions inappropriate to this forum. The reason I'm posting here instead of the "Beginners Mailing List" is that the link to that list appears to be broken in the wiki (see the link on this page: http://www.lojban.org/tiki/tiki-index.php?page=Lojbanic+Forums&bl=y).

And speaking of broken links... the link to the dictionary lb.pdf appears to be broken on this page: http://www.lojban.org/tiki/tiki-index.php?page=Books

Anyway, here's my main subject. I've put together some simple sentences, thus:

la frans. gugde. la .italias. gugde. la paris. tcadu. la romas. tcadu. la paris. tcadu zo'e la frans. la romas. tcadu zo'e la .italias. la paris. joi la marseis. tcadu zo'e la frans. la frans. nenri la .iurop. la .italias. nenri la .iurop.

Q1: Did I use gugde, tcadu, and nenri correctly?

Q2: Are there universally accepted city, country, and other political grouping names? For cities and countries I tried to use the native pronunciation, and for "Europe" I used English because (at least according to Wikipedia) English is the most known language in the EU.

Q3: Does Lojban really just run all the sentences together? Is there any accepted practice to make the sentences more visually separated and yet still look like a continuous narrative?

Q3a: When parsing .... la paris. tcadu. la romas. tcadu. .... is backtracking expected upon hitting the second "tcadu" so that "la paris. tcadu. la romas." is not interpreted as "Paris is a city of metropolitan area Rome"? (also, "la romas. tcadu zo'e la .italias. la paris. ...": Rome is a city in Italy serving the region of Paris... oh wait.)

Thanks for your attention, and again I apologize for the newbness.

--Robert (la rab,rt.)

posts: 3588

On Mar 14, 2009, at 7:34 PM, robert wrote:
> I'm a total n00b to Lojban, so I apologize in advance for any
> questions inappropriate to this forum. The reason I'm posting here
> instead of the "Beginners Mailing List" is that the link to that
> list appears to be broken in the wiki (see the link on this page: http://www.lojban.org/tiki/tiki-index.php?page=Lojbanic+Forums&bl=y
>
).

Just so you know, the "forum" on the tiki is just a web interface to
the mailing lists, which you can subscribe to properly at <http://www.digitalkingdom.org/cgi-bin/lsg2.cgi/
>.

> Q1: Did I use gugde, tcadu, and nenri correctly?

Yes, though I don't think "{la frans. nenri la .iurop.}" is
technically correct. "{nenri}" means total containment, and I'm pretty
sure France controls some islands in the Pacific and possibly
elsewhere as well (I don't know about Italy, though). "{se vasru}"
can be used instead for containment that's not necessary total.

> Q2: Are there universally accepted city, country, and other
> political grouping names?

Universally accepted in the Lojban community or throughout the world?
In Lojban, countries that have cultural {gismu} assigned can have
{lujvo} for names; for example, France can be referred to as "{la
fasygug.}" or "{la fasygu'e}" ("French country").

> Q3: Does Lojban really just run all the sentences together?

No. Sentences are supposed to be separated with "{.i}" (or "{ni'o}"
for paragraphs).

> Q3a: When parsing .... la paris. tcadu. la romas. tcadu. .... is
> backtracking expected upon hitting the second "tcadu" so that "la
> paris. tcadu. la romas." is not interpreted as "Paris is a city of
> metropolitan area Rome"?

See the answer to the previous question.

mu'omi'e .kamymecraijun.

--
() me la .asycy'i'ic. dasri nungazdau fi loi me la xytymylyl. samxa'a
/\ di'o la'o jy. www.asciiribbon.org .jy. fi loi posysivni datnytai
minxa'a


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with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if
you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help.

On Sat, Mar 14, 2009 at 7:34 PM, robert <lojban-out@lojban.org> wrote:
>
> Q2: Are there universally accepted city, country, and other political grouping names?


No. :-) There are some that are more accepted than others. I
understood your choices fine, but for countries like France with
cultural gismu the more common way to refer to them is with a lujvo,
like "fasygu'e".


> Q3: Does Lojban really just run all the sentences together?


Nope, sentences in Lojban should always be divided with ".i"!

dei jufra .i dei drata jufra .i dei ji'a jufra
this.sentence sentence & this.sentence other sentence & this.sentence
also sentence
This is a sentence. This is another sentence. This is also a sentence.


> Thanks for your attention, and again I apologize for the newbness.


That's fine. We were all newbies once. :-) Thanks for your interest in Lojban.


mu'o mi'e selkik


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posts: 3588

I don't think this e-mail was sent properly the first time, so I'm trying again.

On Mar 14, 2009, at 7:34 PM, robert wrote:
> I'm a total n00b to Lojban, so I apologize in advance for any questions inappropriate to
> this forum. The reason I'm posting here instead of the "Beginners Mailing List" is that the
> link to that list appears to be broken in the wiki (see the link on this page:
> http://www.lojban.org/tiki/tiki-index.php?page=Lojbanic+Forums&bl=y).

Just so you know, the "forum" on the tiki is just a web interface to
the mailing lists, which you can subscribe to properly at
<http://www.digitalkingdom.org/cgi-bin/lsg2.cgi/>.

> Q1: Did I use gugde, tcadu, and nenri correctly?

Yes, though I don't think "{la frans. nenri la .iurop.}" is
technically correct. "{nenri}" means total containment, and I'm pretty
sure France controls some islands in the Pacific and possibly
elsewhere as well (I don't know about Italy, though).  "{se vasru}"
can be used instead for containment that's not necessary total.

> Q2: Are there universally accepted city, country, and other political grouping names?

Universally accepted in the Lojban community or throughout the world?
In Lojban,  countries that have cultural {gismu} assigned can have
{lujvo} for names; for example, France can be referred to as "{la
fasygug.}" or "{la fasygu'e}" ("French country").

> Q3: Does Lojban really just run all the sentences together?

No.  Sentences are supposed to be separated with "{.i}" (or "{ni'o}"
for paragraphs).

> Q3a: When parsing .... la paris. tcadu. la romas. tcadu. .... is backtracking expected
> upon hitting the second "tcadu" so that "la paris. tcadu. la romas." is not interpreted as
> "Paris is a city of metropolitan area Rome"?

See the answer to the previous question.

mu'omi'e .kamymecraijun.

--
()  me la .asycy'i'ic. dasri nungazdau fi loi me la xytymylyl. samxa'a
/\  di'o la'o jy. www.asciiribbon.org .jy. fi loi posysivni datnytai minxa'a


To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list-request@lojban.org
with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if
you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help.

posts: 324

On Saturday 14 March 2009 19:34:40 robert wrote:
> Q2: Are there universally accepted city, country, and other political
> grouping names? For cities and countries I tried to use the native
> pronunciation, and for "Europe" I used English because (at least according
> to Wikipedia) English is the most known language in the EU.

"frans" is poetic; the usual word is "fasygug". I say it's poetic, because it
appears in a poem in Alice.

For Marseille I'd say "marseil" or "masilias" (from Latin - another one is
Oradea, which is called "varadinum").

For Europe I'd say "la rontut" or "lo rontu'a". (If there's only one of
something denoted by a brivla, "le" and "lo" make equally good sense. I
generally use "lo" in this case.)

Some others: tolzip - Arctic Ocean; misr - Egypt; bidgug - Indonesia;
dotclant, daitclant, dotygug - Germany (not "doitclant", as that is "doi
tclant").

Can you figure out: la suomen, lo suomne; la madiarorsag, lo magjaro; lo
bangrxai; la .auskalerik, lo skalduna; lo mraigo; la .elvet, lo .elveto; lo
nienke'a; lo siksika; lo tsalagi; lo .abniena; lo niengatu; lo bangrniena; lo
sitlosa; lo sandaue; lo mancuri, lo jurcena; lo .uigru; lo luorvetla?

How would you say "Mesoamerica"?

On Saturday 14 March 2009 19:51:59 Minimiscience wrote:
> Yes, though I don't think "{la frans. nenri la .iurop.}" is
> technically correct. "{nenri}" means total containment, and I'm pretty
> sure France controls some islands in the Pacific and possibly
> elsewhere as well (I don't know about Italy, though). "{se vasru}"
> can be used instead for containment that's not necessary total.

la fas.gian. ketco pagbu la frans. And of Corse there's Napoleon's origin.

mu'omi'e .pier.


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you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help.

posts: 381

In a message dated 3/15/2009 00:42:58 Eastern Daylight Time,
phma@phma.optus.nu writes:


> dotclant, daitclant, dotygug - Germany (not "doitclant", as that is "doi
> tclant").
>

"tcl" is not a valid initial consonant cluster, is it? So how could "doi
tclant" be a valid parse of "doitclant"?

stevo

posts: 324

On Sunday 15 March 2009 00:56:30 MorphemeAddict@wmconnect.com wrote:
> In a message dated 3/15/2009 00:42:58 Eastern Daylight Time,
>
> phma@phma.optus.nu writes:
> > dotclant, daitclant, dotygug - Germany (not "doitclant", as that is "doi
> > tclant").
>
> "tcl" is not a valid initial consonant cluster, is it? So how could "doi
> tclant" be a valid parse of "doitclant"?

"tc" and "cl" are both valid initials, and "tcl" is not "nd[s|z|c|j]",
so "tcl" is a valid initial. "tk", however, is not. I consider "tclytk"
valid, but I'm not sure about xorxes.

Without looking it up, can you guess what "jglandi" means?

Pierre


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posts: 381

In a message dated 3/15/2009 01:37:35 Eastern Daylight Time,
phma@phma.optus.nu writes:


> Without looking it up, can you guess what "jglandi" means?
>

walnuts?

stevo

posts: 381

Why in the world are "jn" and "zn" not valid initial clusters?

stevo

On 3/15/09, Pierre Abbat <phma@phma.optus.nu> wrote:

> On Sunday 15 March 2009 00:56:30 MorphemeAddict@wmconnect.com wrote:
>> phma@phma.optus.nu writes:
>> > (not "doitclant", as that is "doi tclant").
>>
>> "tcl" is not a valid initial consonant cluster, is it? So how could "doi
>> tclant" be a valid parse of "doitclant"?
>
> "tc" and "cl" are both valid initials, and "tcl" is not "nd[s|z|c|j]",
> so "tcl" is a valid initial. "tk", however, is not.

I don't consider "tcl" a valid initial, but the initial cluster rules
don't apply to cmevla in any case. "clsn" is a valid cmevla, even
though it is not a valid inicial cluster.

> I consider "tclytk" valid, but I'm not sure about xorxes.

My current thinking is that both "tclytk" and "tcltk" are valid "free
names" ("zifcme"), but neither is a fully lojbanized name ("jbocme").
I define a jbocme as a cmevla that consists exclusively of syllables
that can occur in brivla.


On 3/15/09, MorphemeAddict@wmconnect.com <MorphemeAddict@wmconnect.com> wrote:
> Why in the world are "jn" and "zn" not valid initial clusters?

Probably because someone found them hard to pronounce, or easy to
confuse with something else.

"jl", "zl", "jr", "zr" are similar cases.

mu'o mi'e xorxes


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posts: 22

Yes, although names that are in the dictionary can also be fair game for a
cmene.

Although france can be fasygug, you can also use la .frans., and I
personally think this is better, because it's closer to what the French
themselves call it. I know I much prefer la .isra,el. to brogu'e

On Sun, Mar 15, 2009 at 11:48 PM, Robert Baruch
<autophile@zoominternet.net>wrote:

>
> On Mar 15, 2009, at 5:41 PM, Robert Baruch wrote:
>
> Can I assume that any country not listed is fair game for a cmene (e.g.
>> Italy -> .italias.)? (OK, that's the last beginner question here, I promise
>> :-)
>>
>
> Er, sorry — I should've picked a word NOT in the dictionary. How about
> Poland -> la .polskan.
>
>
> la rab,rt.
>
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list-request@lojban.org
> with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if
> you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help.
>
>

posts: 324

On Monday 16 March 2009 06:19:39 Yoav Nir wrote:
> Although france can be fasygug, you can also use la .frans., and I
> personally think this is better, because it's closer to what the French
> themselves call it. I know I much prefer la .isra,el. to brogu'e

There are some countries such that whether you can call them by their native
name depends on whether you're on the dot side. One is Ribbonbasket, which
has a few unrelated names; another is la blabruk.

Pierre


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