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    • Alternate writing systems?

    Posted by mitchells00 on Sat 17 of Oct, 2009 10:39 GMT posts: 2

    Hi, I've recently discovered Lojban so I can't speak a word of it, but I was thinking after reading the description about the aim of the language is to be culturally neutral, wouldn't it make sense for the simplistic-yet-elegant artificial language to have a simplistic-yet-elegant artificial writing system? Keeping the Latin and Cyrillic alphabets as learning aids (like Pinyin).

    The best candidate I've come across for this role would have to be Elian Script:

    http://www.omniglot.com/writing/elianscript.htm
    and
    http://www.ccelian.com/concepca.html

    I think it would be the best choice because of the simplistic way it is formed, how it is unique to any other alphabet/abjad, it's artificial, it can be written in any direction and still be understood (allowing for more cultural differences) and is, in my opinion, quite nice to look at.

    Of course you could rearrange the script's alphabet to anyway one would like (some standardisation in that process would be nice) for example the vowels and auxiliary characters are on the first grid, while the second and third are used for consonants?

    Anyone else know of any others that might be suitable? Please post them!

    Of course this is only a thought, and I would appreciate your feedback and opinions. :-)

    Mitchells00

    Reads: 21316
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    Posted by LakatosI on Sat 14 of Nov, 2009 13:36 GMT posts: 5


    The problem with using an Alternate writing system is that you could only really use it when you're handwriting something. Sure, it would make in even more culturally neutral, but when you're writing something in Lojban on the computer or when you want to print something it's just much more convenient to use something which is as wide spread like the Roman-alphabet. Although I have to agree that Elian Script looks awesome.

    Link
    Posted by mitchells00 on Sun 15 of Nov, 2009 08:39 GMT posts: 2

    A proof of concept I suppose:
    http://i33.tinypic.com/28te7bq.png.
    Computer fonts can be made easily, and will print just fine. All we need, is someone to make one for us :-)

    But first, standardising which letter makes which sound.

    Link
    Posted by Saeid Al-Wazzan on Sat 05 of Dec, 2009 12:27 GMT

    As I understand there have been some efforts towards creating an orthography
    for lojban, for example:
    Srilermorna: http://www.lojban.org/tiki/tiki-index.php?page=srilermorna

    <http://www.lojban.org/tiki/tiki-index.php?page=srilermorna>and Zbalermona,
    for which I can't find a useful link. There's also a Tengwar mode for
    Lojban.

    The Elian script does look good, I wonder if there is any talk about
    standardizing a lojban orthography.

    On Sat, Oct 17, 2009 at 1:39 PM, mitchells00 <lojban-out@lojban.org> wrote:

    >
    > Alternate writing systems?
    >
    > Author: mitchells00
    >
    > Hi, I've recently discovered Lojban so I can't speak a word of it, but I
    > was thinking after reading the description about the aim of the language is
    > to be culturally neutral, wouldn't it make sense for the
    > simplistic-yet-elegant artificial language to have a simplistic-yet-elegant
    > artificial writing system? Keeping the Latin and Cyrillic alphabets as
    > learning aids (like Pinyin).
    >
    > The best candidate I've come across for this role would have to be Elian
    > Script:
    >
    > http://www.omniglot.com/writing/elianscript.htm
    > and
    > http://www.ccelian.com/concepca.html
    >
    > I think it would be the best choice because of the simplistic way it is
    > formed, how it is unique to any other alphabet/abjad, it's artificial, it
    > can be written in any direction and still be understood (allowing for more
    > cultural differences) and is, in my opinion, quite nice to look at.
    >
    > Of course you could rearrange the script's alphabet to anyway one would
    > like (some standardisation in that process would be nice) for example the
    > vowels and auxiliary characters are on the first grid, while the second and
    > third are used for consonants?
    >
    > Anyone else know of any others that might be suitable? Please post them!
    >
    > Of course this is only a thought, and I would appreciate your feedback and
    > opinions. :-)
    >
    > Mitchells00
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list-request@lojban.org
    > with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if
    > you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help.
    >
    >

    Link
    Posted by stevo on Sat 05 of Dec, 2009 12:38 GMT posts: 381

    In a message dated 10/17/2009 07:37:39 Eastern Daylight Time,
    carbon.evolve@gmail.com writes:


    > The Elian script does look good, I wonder if there is any talk about
    > standardizing a lojban orthography.
    >

    I don't like the Elian script, and lojban orthography is already
    standardized.

    mu'o mi'e stevon

    Link
    Posted by John E Clifford on Sat 05 of Dec, 2009 12:38 GMT

    Yes, always remember in what sense (if any) Lojban is logical and then be guided by the golden rule of thumb: if it ain't broke, don't fix it. Lojban is hard enough to learn without adding a new alphabet into the mix.





    From: "MorphemeAddict@wmconnect.com" <MorphemeAddict@wmconnect.com>
    To: lojban-list@lojban.org
    Sent: Sat, October 17, 2009 10:42:33 AM
    Subject: lojban Re: Alternate writing systems?

    In a message dated 10/17/2009 07:37:39 Eastern Daylight Time, carbon.evolve@gmail.com writes:



    The Elian script does look good, I wonder if there is any talk about standardizing a lojban orthography.
    >
    >

    I don't like the Elian script, and lojban orthography is already standardized.

    mu'o mi'e stevon



    Link
    Posted by remod on Sat 05 of Dec, 2009 12:38 GMT posts: 39

    On Sat, Oct 17, 2009 at 5:42 PM, <MorphemeAddict@wmconnect.com> wrote:
    > In a message dated 10/17/2009 07:37:39 Eastern Daylight Time,
    > carbon.evolve@gmail.com writes:
    >>
    >> The Elian script does look good, I wonder if there is any talk about
    >> standardizing a lojban orthography.
    >>
    >
    > I don't like the Elian script, and lojban orthography is already
    > standardized.

    I do like the Elian script but the lojban orthgraphy is already
    standardized and there are so few people learning the language that
    asking them to use a non-familiar seems not a good move to me.

    That said, the best way to promote Elian script would be to typeset a
    piece of lojban and send around for comments. I guess nothing will
    change, but I love calligraphy! :-)

    remod


    To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list-request@lojban.org
    with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if
    you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help.

    Link
    Posted by seryf on Sat 05 of Dec, 2009 12:38 GMT posts: 71


    for practicality (ease of learning, ease of computer use), i think lojban should retain the roman alphabet, but i think that having its own orthography would be awesome. The several ones proposed have been impressive, but i like things even more computer/barcode-ish looking, since i think lojban could be the language of androids. something like this maybe http://www.omniglot.com/writing/12480.htm







    ---Original Message---
    From: Remo Dentato <rdentato@gmail.com>
    To: lojban-list@lojban.org
    Sent: Sat, Oct 17, 2009 9:51 am
    Subject: lojban Re: Alternate writing systems?










    On Sat, Oct 17, 2009 at 5:42 PM, <MorphemeAddict@wmconnect.com> wrote:
    > In a message dated 10/17/2009 07:37:39 Eastern Daylight Time,
    > carbon.evolve@gmail.com writes:
    >>
    >> The Elian script does look good, I wonder if there is any talk about
    >> standardizing a lojban orthography.
    >>
    >
    > I don't like the Elian script, and lojban orthography is already
    > standardized.

    I do like the Elian script but the lojban orthgraphy is already
    standardized and there are so few people learning the language that
    asking them to use a non-familiar seems not a good move to me.

    That said, the best way to promote Elian script would be to typeset a
    piece of lojban and send around for comments. I guess nothing will
    change, but I love calligraphy! :-)

    remod


    To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list-request@lojban.org
    with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if
    you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help.







    Link
    Posted by John E Clifford on Sat 05 of Dec, 2009 12:49 GMT

    One of the real (but incompletely realized) advantages of the Latin alphabet over many a priori constructions is the marked difference of the forms of letters and hence of words. To be sure, this is far from completely true but beats out a considerable number of other alphabetic (or syllabic) systems, If we must make a new face for Lb (which we must not, by the way), lets start with what is already a way along the line.And, for the first time in Lojban, build in some redundancies.





    From: Seth <thirderivative@aol.com>
    To: lojban-list@lojban.org
    Sent: Sat, October 17, 2009 12:13:00 PM
    Subject: lojban Re: Alternate writing systems?

    for practicality (ease of learning, ease of computer use), i think lojban should retain the roman alphabet, but i think that having its own orthography would be awesome. The several ones proposed have been impressive, but i like things even more computer/barcode-ish looking, since i think lojban could be the language of androids. something like this maybe http://www.omniglot.com/writing/12480.htm



    ---Original Message---
    From: Remo Dentato <rdentato@gmail.com>
    To: lojban-list@lojban.org
    Sent: Sat, Oct 17, 2009 9:51 am
    Subject: lojban Re: Alternate writing systems?


    On Sat, Oct 17, 2009 at 5:42 PM, <MorphemeAddict@wmconnect.com> wrote:

    > In a message dated 10/17/2009 07:37:39 Eastern Daylight Time,

    > carbon.evolve@gmail.com writes:

    >>

    >> The Elian script does look good, I wonder if there is any talk about

    >> standardizing a lojban orthography.

    >>

    >

    > I don't like the Elian script, and lojban orthography is already

    > standardized.


    I do like the Elian script but the lojban orthgraphy is already

    standardized and there are so few people learning the language that

    asking them to use a non-familiar seems not a good move to me.


    That said, the best way to promote Elian script would be to typeset a

    piece of lojban and send around for comments. I guess nothing will

    change, but I love calligraphy! :-)


    remod



    To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list-request@lojban.org

    with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if

    you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help.



    Link
    Posted by lukebergen on Sun 06 of Dec, 2009 12:57 GMT posts: 493

    hmm, so maybe an alternate writing system like elian script would be more
    like the "native lojban" while the latin alphabet is used for teaching new
    people etc... Kind of like what romaji is to Japanese.

    On Sat, Nov 14, 2009 at 8:36 AM, LakatosI <lojban-out@lojban.org> wrote:

    >
    > Re: Alternate writing systems?
    >
    > Author: LakatosI
    >
    >
    > The problem with using an Alternate writing system is that you could only
    > really use it when you're handwriting something. Sure, it would make in even
    > more culturally neutral, but when you're writing something in Lojban on the
    > computer or when you want to print something it's just much more convenient
    > to use something which is as wide spread like the Roman-alphabet. Although I
    > have to agree that Elian Script looks awesome.
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list-request@lojban.org
    > with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if
    > you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help.
    >
    >

    Link
    Posted by Steven Lytle on Sun 06 of Dec, 2009 12:57 GMT

    You can pretend that if you like, but there is nothing wrong with the
    Latin-based orthography. It fits perfectly Lojban's actual history, although
    maybe not some fictional history.

    stevo

    On Sat, Nov 14, 2009 at 6:15 PM, Luke Bergen <lukeabergen@gmail.com> wrote:

    > hmm, so maybe an alternate writing system like elian script would be more
    > like the "native lojban" while the latin alphabet is used for teaching new
    > people etc... Kind of like what romaji is to Japanese.
    >
    >
    > On Sat, Nov 14, 2009 at 8:36 AM, LakatosI <lojban-out@lojban.org> wrote:
    >
    >>
    >> Re: Alternate writing systems?
    >>
    >> Author: LakatosI
    >>
    >>
    >> The problem with using an Alternate writing system is that you could only
    >> really use it when you're handwriting something. Sure, it would make in even
    >> more culturally neutral, but when you're writing something in Lojban on the
    >> computer or when you want to print something it's just much more convenient
    >> to use something which is as wide spread like the Roman-alphabet. Although I
    >> have to agree that Elian Script looks awesome.
    >>
    >>
    >>
    >>
    >> To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to
    >> lojban-list-request@lojban.org
    >> with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if
    >> you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help.
    >>
    >>
    >

    Link
    Posted by lindarthebard on Sun 06 of Dec, 2009 12:57 GMT posts: 66 United States

    Okay, to be quite honest, I think that you're all getting VERY carried away with this.
    I saw a cool writing system, I adapted it for Lojban (you can see my piss-poor examples and documentation on jbotcan), and I thought it would be cute an an added culturalism for anybody that wanted to use it. I wasn't doing the "Ancient Loglandia" thing with lojbo gugde, I wasn't trying to retcon a writing system in the history, I wasn't trying to do anything except make a short, quick, easy-to-learn script for anybody that wanted to hand-write personal notes in a different script that could be easily identified as Lojban due to its primary non-use in any language.

    Coming from the person that adapted Elian Script for Lojban, I say this as the final word, Hand of God, that in the model of current society there is no reason to fully adapt a script other than Roman. 95% of the Western world uses it on a daily basis, at least half uses it everywhere else because England/America invented the computer, ISO, the Internet, and pretty much every other piece of technology first, so the standard has already been set in Roman, and there's no reason to cause anybody any large amount of grief to install a new non-standard and unrecognised non-ISO script and learn an entirely new writing system when Lojban is already hard enough for a good number of people. Larlermorna won't replace Roman script unless we have an actual physical community or country of our own where Lojban is the national language, in which case we may (MAY, not will) decide to adapt an official Lojbanic script, which may not even be any of the ones currently
    available.

    Don't pitch such a fit over all of this. It's meant to be fun. It takes all of five minutes to be able to learn, and about a day of practice to read, which is why I liked it in the first place. I think that 95% of the tech-savvy world can read Roman letters, so lets not push our luck and make Lojban that much more difficult. If you want to post to jbotcan a picture of yourself holding up something written in lar/zba/srilermorna, then that's fine.

    I'm pretty sure I speak for everybody that's created a Lojban script when I say that nothing short of a miracle is going to replace Roman script any time soon, and we never intended to try to replace it.

    If somebody is keen on buying/building a self-sufficient island-country and declaring in the official lojbo gugde, then we'll talk.

    mi'e .lindar.


    >
    >From: Steven Lytle <lytlesw@gmail.com>
    >To: lojban-list@lojban.org
    >Sent: Sat, November 14, 2009 4:10:11 PM
    >Subject: lojban Re: Alternate writing systems?
    >
    >
    >You can pretend that if you like, but there is nothing wrong with the Latin-based orthography. It fits perfectly Lojban's actual history, although maybe not some fictional history.
    >
    >stevo
    >
    >
    >On Sat, Nov 14, 2009 at 6:15 PM, Luke Bergen <lukeabergen@gmail.com> wrote:
    >
    >hmm, so maybe an alternate writing system like elian script would be more like the "native lojban" while the latin alphabet is used for teaching new people etc... Kind of like what romaji is to Japanese.
    >>
    >>
    >>
    >>
    >>On Sat, Nov 14, 2009 at 8:36 AM, LakatosI <lojban-out@lojban.org> wrote:
    >>
    >>
    >>>Re: Alternate writing systems?
    >>>
    >>>Author: LakatosI
    >>>
    >>>
    >>>The problem with using an Alternate writing system is that you could only really use it when you're handwriting something. Sure, it would make in even more culturally neutral, but when you're writing something in Lojban on the computer or when you want to print something it's just much more convenient to use something which is as wide spread like the Roman-alphabet. Although I have to agree that Elian Script looks awesome.
    >>>
    >>>
    >>>
    >>>
    >>>
    >>>To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list-request@lojban.org
    >>>with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if
    >>>>>>you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help.
    >>>
    >>>
    >>
    >



    Link
    Posted by lindarthebard on Sun 06 of Dec, 2009 12:59 GMT posts: 66 United States

    > A proof of concept I suppose:

    > http://i33.tinypic.com/28te7bq.png.
    > Computer fonts can be made easily, and will print just fine. All we need, is
    > someone to make one for us :-)
    >
    > But first, standardising which letter makes which sound.


    Ooooooookay, I got confused for a second before I realised that it's got Elian Script on it and not larlermorna.
    Quite honestly, I'd love to

    There is no standarising which letter makes which sound, I already made the system and posted my notes to jbotcan.org for all to see.
    Unless you can suggest some drastic improvement to the general system, it's already sound. I'll do a video sample tonight and post it to YouTube, then the link to jbotcan and the mailing list.

    However, I still don't believe that larlermorna, or any script, can and/or should replace Roman script as the default for Lojban. It alienates new learners and adds that much more of a learning curve. If we had a large body of speakers, or if we had a country with Lojban as the national language, that might warrant it. As it stands, I didn't design this for, nor do I desire it to be the default script for Lojban. Would I like to see it fall into common usage amongst lo certu tavla? Of course I would! I just don't want to add to any troubles of which we already have many.






    To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list-request@lojban.org
    with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if
    you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help.

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