Lojban In General

Posted by lukebergen on Mon 23 of Nov, 2009 11:26 GMT posts: 493

.u'i mi se zdile .i ku'i mi na jimpe lo remoi be lo za'e vlaxra .i xu di'u
xamgu gerna

- Luke Bergen

On Tue, Jun 2, 2009 at 8:52 PM, Stela Selckiku <selckiku@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Mon, May 25, 2009 at 7:31 AM, Michael Turniansky
> <mturniansky@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > http://picasaweb.google.com/Mturniansky/Vlapir#5338743827399745106
>
>
> doi gejyspa lo do za'e vlaxra zo'u mi se zdile .i melbi .i'e .i ro ko
> viska doi jbopre
>
> mu'o mi'e la se ckiku
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list-request@lojban.org
> with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if
> you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help.
>
>

On Wed, Jun 3, 2009 at 6:50 AM, Luke Bergen <lukeabergen@gmail.com> wrote:

> .u'i mi se zdile .i ku'i mi na jimpe lo remoi be lo za'e vlaxra .i xu di'u
> xamgu gerna
>

zo cipni

.i ba'e mi na jimpe lo vo moi .i tcidu zo ckiku .i ku'i lo pixra na simsa lo
ckiku mi

no'i .i'e melbi je sampu je jai se gleki fa lo vlaxra .ui

--
Daniel Brockman
daniel@gointeractive.se

Posted by lagejyspa on Mon 23 of Nov, 2009 11:27 GMT posts: 350

On Wed, Jun 3, 2009 at 12:50 AM, Luke Bergen <lukeabergen@gmail.com> wrote:
> .u'i mi se zdile .i ku'i mi na jimpe lo remoi be lo za'e vlaxra .i xu di'u
> xamgu gerna

Not exactly. The x2 of jimpe needs to be an fact (du'u) that you
don't understand. In this case, you should simply slip a "fi" in
front of the "lo remoi..." to say that the domain of what you don't
understand (i.e. the x3 place) is the 2nd picture, without specifying
what it is you don't understand, which we'd understand from context.

More problematic is your last sentence. You are being too literal
in your translating "was that last utterance good grammar?" To start
with, you aren't worried about whether it's beneficial to someone
(xamgu), but whether it's "correct" (drani). Secondly, "gerna" is the
grammar itself, he system of rules governing a language. The
utterance isn't a gerna, but a "te gerna". So you might have said
something like "xu di'u drani lo ka te gerna la lojban" (although
I'm not sure that's quite correct, either), or maybe "xu di'u mupli lo
drani te gerna be la lojban"

--gejyspa

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Posted by lukebergen on Mon 23 of Nov, 2009 11:27 GMT posts: 493

Interesting. I once saw someone correcting my un-grammatical post by saying
"... di'u cu malgerna..." and was trying to mirror that. Is "... di'u cu
malgerna..." not quite right in the same way that "di'u cu xamgu gerna"
isn't?

- Luke Bergen

On Wed, Jun 3, 2009 at 11:13 AM, Michael Turniansky
<mturniansky@gmail.com>wrote:

> On Wed, Jun 3, 2009 at 12:50 AM, Luke Bergen <lukeabergen@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > .u'i mi se zdile .i ku'i mi na jimpe lo remoi be lo za'e vlaxra .i xu
> di'u
> > xamgu gerna
>
> Not exactly. The x2 of jimpe needs to be an fact (du'u) that you
> don't understand. In this case, you should simply slip a "fi" in
> front of the "lo remoi..." to say that the domain of what you don't
> understand (i.e. the x3 place) is the 2nd picture, without specifying
> what it is you don't understand, which we'd understand from context.
>
> More problematic is your last sentence. You are being too literal
> in your translating "was that last utterance good grammar?" To start
> with, you aren't worried about whether it's beneficial to someone
> (xamgu), but whether it's "correct" (drani). Secondly, "gerna" is the
> grammar itself, he system of rules governing a language. The
> utterance isn't a gerna, but a "te gerna". So you might have said
> something like "xu di'u drani lo ka te gerna la lojban" (although
> I'm not sure that's quite correct, either), or maybe "xu di'u mupli lo
> drani te gerna be la lojban"
>
> --gejyspa
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list-request@lojban.org
> with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if
> you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help.
>
>

Posted by lagejyspa on Mon 23 of Nov, 2009 11:27 GMT posts: 350

On Wed, Jun 3, 2009 at 5:13 AM, Daniel Brockman <dbrockman@gmail.com> wrote:
>

> .i ba'e mi na jimpe lo vo moi .i tcidu zo ckiku .i ku'i lo pixra na simsa lo
> ckiku mi
>

ke'u mi na stati terxra .i mi troci lo nu taizba lo simsa be la'o
net http://www.intute.ac.uk/images/BTH_key .net

ni'o ta'o fau lo nu su'o prenu na djuno fi lo nu no'a keikei ro lo
pixra ka'e se viska tai lo barda ta'i lo nu smacu pe'a cuxna lo
cmalu pixra

--gejyspa

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with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if
you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help.

Posted by lagejyspa on Mon 23 of Nov, 2009 11:27 GMT posts: 350

On Wed, Jun 3, 2009 at 11:27 AM, Luke Bergen <lukeabergen@gmail.com> wrote:
> Interesting.  I once saw someone correcting my un-grammatical post by saying
> "... di'u cu malgerna..." and was trying to mirror that.  Is "... di'u cu
> malgerna..." not quite right in the same way that "di'u cu xamgu gerna"
> isn't?
>
>

Yes and no. "malgerna" suffers from a confluence of issues.
One, the hot debate over exactly how one uses "mal-", and it's
meaning. The second, from the fact that lujvo aren't the same as
tanru, in that lujvo may be assigned meanings that are at base totally
arbritrary, albeit well-defined, relations between the terms of the
underlying tanru, and can drop certain things like "ke" and "se" (and
even gismu) under certain cases. The third, traditional use. So,
yeah, "malgerna" usually used in that way (point 3) to mean a bad
example of grammar, but form a strictly technical standpoint (#1-#2),
it should have probably never been formed that way. But in any case,
when you use a tanru instead of a lujvo, you are under stricter
controls as to meaning of it.

Point #3 also explains while "malgerna" is used, instead of the
more "proper" (lower-scoring) lujvo "malge'a" (malgerna) which held
true even before the great rafsi reallocation of '93

(In any case, if you really wanted to to use the opposite of
"malgerna", it would be zange'a)

--gejyspa

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with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if
you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help.

On Wed, Jun 3, 2009 at 1:08 PM, Michael Turniansky
<mturniansky@gmail.com> wrote:
> The third, traditional use.  So,
> yeah, "malgerna" usually  used in that way (point 3) to mean a bad
> example of grammar,

Is it? Google finds only one use, namely in the "Lojban Anthem", and
it doesn't seem to be used to mean "ungrammatical":

".i .e'o ko cu klina selcusku gi'e jicla le no'e farvi pe ri'a le nu
seljimte loi malgerna"
"Please be clearly expressed, stirring the stagnation caused by the
limits of Grammar." (lojbab's translation)
"Please be said clearly, and mix that which half-way ends up inside
the boundaries of bad grammar." (tsali's translation)

There are some hits (though not very many) for "na gendra", "na'e
gendra" and "nalgendra", which is what I would have said was the usual
way of saying "ungrammatical".

mu'o mi'e xorxes

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Posted by lagejyspa on Mon 23 of Nov, 2009 11:27 GMT posts: 350

2009/6/3 Jorge Llambías <jjllambias@gmail.com>:
> On Wed, Jun 3, 2009 at 1:08 PM, Michael Turniansky
> <mturniansky@gmail.com> wrote:
>>  The third, traditional use.  So,
>> yeah, "malgerna" usually  used in that way (point 3) to mean a bad
>> example of grammar,
>
> Is it? Google finds only one use, namely in the "Lojban Anthem", and
> it doesn't seem to be used to mean "ungrammatical":

Maybe your google does, but mine finds at least two uses in the irc
log not involving the anthem (
http://www.lojban.org/resources/irclog/lojban/2008_08_01-02_22.txt , ,
http://www.lojban.org/resources/irclog/lojban/2008_08_02-02_21.txt ),
and once on the BPFK Intensifiers discussion page on the tiki.

--gejyspa

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with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if
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