WikiDiscuss

Dear Lojbanists! It would be great if you post here your comments, suggestions and opinions! I will have a stimulus for further work!

Some comments about the 2nd module:

My parents.
`006`le rirni po'e mi
Your hand.
`007`le birka po'e do
The parents of whom?
`008`le rirni po'e ma

Two of my three sisters read books.
`068`re lo ci mensi pe mi cu tcidu le cukta

These are slightly odd, because {le rirni be mi}, {le birka be mi},
{le rirni be ma}, {re lo ci mensi be mi} would be more direct. It is
hard to find good uses for {po'e}, because {be} will almost always
be better. (Also, why use {pe} with {mensi} and {po'e} with {rirni}?)

False, that most men love at least one woman each.
`097`ro lo nanmu cu na prami su'o pa lo ninmu

(s/most/all or s/ro/so'e)
Although this agrees with the official prescription for the scope
of {na}, this convention has problems.
See <http://www.lojban.org/tiki/tiki-index.php?page=scope%20of%20na>

How many of your sisters drink beer?
`102`xo lo do mensi cu pinxe le birje

With {le} this would be about a specific amount of beer: "How many
of your sisters are drinking/drank the beer in question?" rather
than beer in general.

How many books are you reading?
`104`do tcidu xo le cukta

Similarly here: {xo le cukta} would be "How many of the books?"
and {xo lo cukta} for "How many books?"

-How many books has Nikolay?
+-None.
`111`la nikolys. ponsa xo lo cukta
+no

s/ponsa/ponse

The man is going to the bar.
`156`le nanmu klama le barja

s/klama/cu klama

The cat is (being) sold by Pyotr. /Russian Peter/
`165`le mlatu se vecnu la piotr.

s/se/cu se

mu'o mi'e xorxes

Some comments on the pronunciation of the second module:

Item 13: li ci
Item 23: li paci

In both cases, the "i" of {ci} doesn't sound like an "i" to me. I can
barely hear it. Stressed "i"s and other final "i"s sound fine to me.

Item 102: xo lo do mensi cu pinxe le birje

I hear "xo do lo" instead of "xo lo do".

Other than that minor thing with the final unstreessed {ci}, I find the
pronunciation very clear and easy to understand.

mu'o mi'e xorxes

In a message dated 11/8/2005 5:53:10 PM Central Standard Time,
jjllambias@gmail.com writes:

> Some comments on the pronunciation of the second module:
>
> Item 13: li ci
> Item 23: li paci
>
> In both cases, the "i" of {ci} doesn't sound like an "i" to me. I can
> barely hear it.

I heard the /S/ of "ci" as a Russian 'sh', which has the tongue further back
on the hard palate. Of course, since the speaker is a native Russian...

stevo

In a message dated 11/9/2005 8:42:26 PM Central Standard Time,
wikidiscuss@lojban.org writes:

> Actually, as I also speak Chinese, {ci} I pronounce is Chinese ? (shi4).
>
No wonder! The vowel in shi4 is very different from standard Lojban /i/.
Try using first tone and any final /i/ except after c, s, z, ch, sh, zh, r.

stevo

A remark on the Pronunciation module. The file "Lojban Pronunciation.exe" writes the sound files into the subdirectory Pronunciation of the current directory, whereas the first line of the file "Lojban Pronunciation.txt" is Sounds\Pronunciation, pointing thus to a different directory. I had to edit the *.txt file manually to be able to hear the sound.

mi'e .evgenis.

First, the good: Parallel 2 is a very effective tool. Next, the bad: I can't run it (except on my Windows machine at work, which I don't have anymore — it's become a Linux-based server). The audio doesn't play on my wife's home Windows computer, and my Linux systems don't have RealPlayer installed.

> Dear Lojbanists! It would be great if you post here your comments, suggestions and opinions! I will have a stimulus for further work!

The use of MP3-encoded WAVs is unfortunate: SDL can't play them, sox can't convert them, speexenc can't reencode them. I'd like to build a single, cross-platform implementation of Parallel 2 (the current Python one doesn't work on Windows, and the depedency on RealPlayer (which I don't run and won't run on my Linux box for philosophical reasons) is harmful as well).

Encoding the audio to the Ogg project's Speex format will yield tighter compression than MP3, and is supported by SDL (so a cross-platform implementation using only Free software will be possible). Are the original audio files still available (such that the generational loss caused by reencoding content already processed by a lossy compression algorithm can be avoided)? If not, does anyone know of a tool for batch reencoding of WAV-encapsulated MP3s?

(Also, Speex is not subject to licensing fees; MP3 is subject to patents held by Fraunhofer and Thompson).

Some of the recordings seem to have pronounciation inconsistencies, which is very bad for learners. For example, "le" is pronounced like English "lay" when it should be pronounced like French "le"; "nelci" sounds like it is pronounced like "nelce"; but pronounces "pinxe" like I would assume.

I verified this with one of the top Lojban speakers and he agreed and said the person who made the Parallel 2 recordings did so when he was still learning Lojban.

ChrisMiller scripsit:

> Some of the recordings seem to have pronounciation inconsistencies,
> which is very bad for learners. For example, "le" is pronounced
> like English "lay" when it should be pronounced like French "le";
> "nelci" sounds like it is pronounced like "nelce"; but pronounces
> "pinxe" like I would assume.

I haven't heard the recordings and can't comment on them, but "le"
should be neither English "lay" (Lojban "lei") nor French "le"
(Lojban "ly") but like English "let" without the "t"; French "les"
is an acceptable variant.

--
Clear? Huh! Why a four-year-old child John Cowan
could understand this report. Run out cowan@ccil.org
and find me a four-year-old child. I http://www.ccil.org/~cowan
can't make head or tail out of it.
--Rufus T. Firefly on government reports

In a message dated 8/4/2006 1:40:05 PM Central Standard Time,
wikidiscuss@lojban.org writes:

> Problem with Parallel 2 recordings
> Some of the recordings seem to have pronounciation inconsistencies, which is
> very bad for learners. For example, "le" is pronounced like English
> "lay" when it should be pronounced like French "le"; "nelci" sounds like it is
> pronounced like "nelce"; but pronounces "pinxe" like I would assume.
>

Whoa!
French "le" is pronounced like Lojban "ly". Rather than English "lay", which
is the pronunciation of Lojban "lei", I expect Lojban "le" to have the vowel
of English "let".

stevo

On Fri, Aug 04, 2006 at 02:44:59PM -0400,
MorphemeAddict@wmconnect.com wrote:
> In a message dated 8/4/2006 1:40:05 PM Central Standard Time,
> wikidiscuss@lojban.org writes:
>
>
> > Problem with Parallel 2 recordings Some of the recordings seem
> > to have pronounciation inconsistencies, which is __very bad for
> > learners__. For example, "le" is pronounced like English "lay"
> > when it should be pronounced like French "le"; "nelci" sounds
> > like it is pronounced like "nelce"; but pronounces "pinxe" like
> > I would assume.
> >
>
> Whoa! French "le" is pronounced like Lojban "ly". Rather than
> English "lay", which is the pronunciation of Lojban "lei", I
> expect Lojban "le" to have the vowel of English "let".

Depends on the French. Sounds like you're talking about Quebecois
French? There are definately dialects where French le == Lojban le.

-Robin

--
http://www.digitalkingdom.org/~rlpowell/ *** http://www.lojban.org/
Reason #237 To Learn Lojban: "Homonyms: Their Grate!"
Proud Supporter of the Singularity Institute - http://singinst.org/

In a message dated 8/4/2006 1:49:07 PM Central Standard Time,
rlpowell@digitalkingdom.org writes:

> > Whoa! French "le" is pronounced like Lojban "ly". Rather than
> > English "lay", which is the pronunciation of Lojban "lei", I
> > expect Lojban "le" to have the vowel of English "let".
>
> Depends on the French. Sounds like you're talking about Quebecois
> French? There are definately dialects where French le == Lojban le.
>
> -Robin
>

Then they use a nonstandard pronunciation and should not be used as a
pronunciation example.

stevo

MorphemeAddict@wmconnect.com scripsit:

> Then they use a nonstandard pronunciation and should not be used as a
> pronunciation example.

Exactly.

--
John Cowan cowan@ccil.org http://ccil.org/~cowan
If a soldier is asked why he kills people who have done him no harm, or a
terrorist why he kills innocent people with his bombs, they can always
reply that war has been declared, and there are no innocent people in an
enemy country in wartime. The answer is psychotic, but it is the answer
that humanity has given to every act of aggression in history. --Northrop Frye

On Fri, Aug 04, 2006 at 02:54:47PM -0400, John Cowan wrote:
> MorphemeAddict@wmconnect.com scripsit:
>
> > Then they use a nonstandard pronunciation and should not be used
> > as a pronunciation example.
>
> Exactly.

You guys almost certainly know French better than I. I defer.

-Robin

On Sat, Jan 3, 2009 at 5:32 PM, purpleposeidon <wikidiscuss@lojban.org>wrote:

>
> Re: Parallel 2
>
> Author: purpleposeidon
>
> What if this was integrated with the jbo espeak? Modules would be easier to
> write; you could also, for example, feed it books.
>
>
>
>
>
> That sounds like an interesting idea. Do you know how to do that?

--
mu'o mi'e .topy'at.

.i.a'o.e'e ko klama le bende pe denpa bu

> I verified this with one of the top Lojban speakers and he agreed and said the person who made the Parallel 2 recordings did so when he was still learning Lojban.

Hah! Show me a person who has FINISHED learning Lojban ))