Russian etymology of Lojban Posted by lojbab on Mon 16 of Jun, 2008 06:02 GMT posts: 162 Use this thread to discuss the Russian etymology of Lojban page.
Posted by lojbab on Mon 16 of Jun, 2008 06:01 GMT posts: 162 mublin wrote: >>> vlagi vulva >> >><vlagi> sounds very close to <*влаг*алище>=vagina > > Added, leaving the Lojbanisation field blank, and marked dubious. I spotted this one. Here is the full etymology (which includes words that were run but yielded a lesser score) vulva i20a Chinese wai\yin- (uaiiin) English vulva (valva) pudend-um (piudend) cunt (kant) Hindi bhag (bag) cut (cut) Spanish vuvla (vulva) cun~o (kuno) Russian (no equivalent word in dictionary) Arabic farj (farj) note: "add this or genitals" (genitals was run separately and apparently yielded a lower scoring word). We also considered using a lujvo based on vagina-lip > kluza loose blusk > блузка bluzka ``blouse'' I should not on this that JCB is the source of conflating loose and blouse (properly "bloused"). The concept "blouse" here is not the female garment, but a loose upper garment. (Sailors of either gender apparently wear blouses). > kramu acre deklatin > деÑÑтина desâtina ``tithe; dessiatina'' > -- > measure of land equivalent to 2,7 acres (source: http://www.rambler.ru/dict/) > correct transcription ``desiatin'' Note that the intent is that Russian word would probably be made into a lujvo based on rusko-kramu > tunba sibling [] > Russian source word missing in original gismu etymology file: > -- > no Russian equivalent > cf. Ñиблинг sibling ``sibling (scientific; rare)'' From the orginal etymology sheet: Note: "This is a good concept but hard to look up because many lang's with masc/fem endings simply have a root that implies this and the ending specifies whether you mean "brother" or "sister". e.f. S. hermos-a; A. ult, ulta. I think it would be good for L. to have such, using m/f affixes when necessary" Chinese tong/bao- (tunbau) = same parents (i had some 10 other possibilities listed on th back English sibling (siblin) Hindi sahodar (saxodar) = uterine t. i. same mother Spanish emparentad-o (emparentad) Russian and Arabic no usable equivalent > vibna vagina blagalic > влагалище vlagaliÅe ``vagina'' > -- > correct transcription ``vlagalic'' I saw this one go by, but no time now to type in the etymology. lojbab To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list-request@lojban.org with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help.
Posted by lojbab on Mon 16 of Jun, 2008 06:01 GMT posts: 162 Jorge Llambas wrote: > On Mon, Apr 14, 2008 at 2:13 PM, Bob LeChevalier <lojbab@lojban.org> wrote: > > >>I spotted this one. Here is the full etymology (which includes words that >>were run but yielded a lesser score) >> >>vulva i20a >>Chinese wai\yin- (uaiiin) >>English vulva (valva) pudend-um (piudend) cunt (kant) >>Hindi bhag (bag) cut (cut) >>Spanish vulva (vulva) cun~o (kuno) > > "coo" > >>From the orginal etymology sheet: >>Note: "This is a good concept but hard to look up because many lang's with >>masc/fem endings simply have a root that implies this and the ending >>specifies whether you mean "brother" or "sister". e.f. S. hermos-a; > > "hermana" The note was probably by Tommy Whitlock, who didn't do the Spanish. Since Nora ended up finding a different word, this error turns out not to matter. Probably he got it confused by the neighboring street name here, which is Hermosa. But you clearly show the limitations of our word-making work. lojbab To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list-request@lojban.org with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help.
Posted by lojbab on Mon 16 of Jun, 2008 06:02 GMT posts: 162 mublin wrote: > The list of Russian source words 1 has been updated. Many thanks to > everybody who has helped with this effort. > > The entire list has been checked against Evgeny's work 2; many > missing words have been added and erroneous reconstructions > corrected. Proposals made on this list have also been incorporated. > > The English translations for the Russian source words have been > improved. > > A list of known problems is included at the very end of this message, > help with any of these would be much appreciated. My wife helped me find and dig out the great Tome of Etymology from where it was buried. I spent a few minutes comparing what you had with what was in the book, and had no complaints about the dozen odd words I looked up. Alas, a serious effort to use the book to solve your problems will take much time. The hundreds of sheets are not ordered in any way and are not indexed. There are 4 words to the typical page in no particular order, and thus the pages couldn't be ordered if I wanted to. The only way I will find the missing and problem words is pretty much to go through a page at a time. I still have the Russian dictionary we used for the original work as well. I'll see if I can make an effort on it in the next week or two. lojbab To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list-request@lojban.org with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help.
Posted by mublin on Mon 16 of Jun, 2008 06:02 GMT posts: 20 Thank you all, the Russian etymology has been amended. https://www.dealloc.org/~mublin/lojban-source-words_ru/ All Russian source words have been reconstructed, although 4-5 words remain dubious. The changed entries in the Russian source word list are included at the end of this message. On Sat, Apr 12, 2008 at 05:08:32PM -0400, Bob LeChevalier wrote: > My wife helped me find and dig out the great Tome of Etymology from > where it was buried. I spent a few minutes comparing what you had > with what was in the book, and had no complaints about the dozen odd > words I looked up. Many thanks, I'm happy to hear that. > Alas, a serious effort to use the book to solve your problems will > take much time. The hundreds of sheets are not ordered in any way > and are not indexed. There are 4 words to the typical page in no > particular order, and thus the pages couldn't be ordered if I wanted > to. The only way I will find the missing and problem words is > pretty much to go through a page at a time. > > I still have the Russian dictionary we used for the original work as > well. > > I'll see if I can make an effort on it in the next week or two. I wouldn't have asked for it given the amount of work required. If you do find the time to clarify some of the dubious or missing source words, it would be much appreciated! The most interesting gismu for the Russian etymology would be genja, sraji, vlagi. The gismu with missing source words are: Spanish: tanxe (box) trank Chinese: cicna (cyan) cian ckunu (conifer) cieugue lunsa (condense) lu milxe (mild) xe skiji (ski) xuaciueji (only the last component ``ji'' is unaccounted for) tarla (tar) ta tenfa (exponential) cenfan vrici (miscellaneous) ci The numbers of dubious or missing source words in all etymologies are: Chinese: 47 English: 3 Russian: 5 Spanish: 10 These are marked with "FIXIT" both in the plain text and in the HTML version. On Sat, Apr 12, 2008 at 08:45:12PM +0400, Dmitry Shintyakov wrote: > > > venfu revenge vimie > > .i mi na briti .i pe'i zoi .ry вымещать .ry. mapti .i ta'o ri voksa > smuni zoi jy. vymiescat .jy ki'e doi dmitris .i ba'o se jmina On Sat, Apr 12, 2008 at 03:29:26PM +0100, Evgeny Sklyanin wrote: > > sraji vertical skak > > Bizarre. "Ñкакать" means "to jump" but why here? Added and marked dubious. Who knows, the dictionary used originally might have listed a phrase involving Ñкакать under "vertical". snip > > genja root slov > > <Ñлово> means <word> . My guess is that here <genja> got somehow > mixed with <gismu>="root word" Added and marked dubious. > > sorgu sorghum > > Ñорго Added, leaving the Lojbanisation field blank. The original gismu etymology says: > x17b sorgu 66.20 sorghum 1/2o > typo should have been sargu, loses all Chinese and Hindi > sorgu 32.80 0 4 0 4 4 0 so {sorgu} must have been derived from English ``sorghum'' Spanish ``sorgo'' Russian ``Ñорго'' which had nonzero scores. > > tunba sibling > > No Russian equivalent. In scientific literature one can find Ñиблинг I'll assume there was no Russian source word then; mentioned Ñиблинг only in the comment field. > > vlagi vulva > > <vlagi> sounds very close to <*влаг*алище>=vagina Added, leaving the Lojbanisation field blank, and marked dubious. > > binxo become dien > > денетÑÑ denetsâ ``???'' > > денетÑÑ is a finite form of the verb детьÑÑ = to dissapear, to go away. Yes, > it looks like a poor choice for <binxo>. It was just an attempt to account > for the final <n> in dien. > > On the other hand, if we assume that the original choice was diel, and the > final <l> was somehow corrupted, it makes much more sense: *дел*атьÑÑ = to > become I see. Actually, this seems more probable to me because of the clear semantic correspondence and the frequency of single letter typos in the Lojbanisations. Changed to делатьÑÑ, marked dubious, with a comment about bad transcription and mention of денетÑÑ as an alternative reconstruction possibility. Here come the changes. The five Russian source words still marked dubious are listed first. (Actually, sorgu < Ñорго isn't really dubious except for the fact that the Lojbanised form is not reported.) ------------------ CHANGES — DUBIOUS ------------------ binxo become dien делатьÑÑ delatʹsâ ``become; get; grow'' -- FIXIT dubious source: http://www.rambler.ru/dict/ correct transcription ``diel'' cf. денетÑÑ denetsâ ``finite form of the verb детьÑÑ = to disappear, to go away'' (variant) genja root slov Ñлово slovo ``word'' -- FIXIT dubious possibly by confusion with ``gismu'' sorgu sorghum [] Ñорго sorgo ``sorghum'' -- FIXIT dubious Russian source word missing in original gismu etymology file sraji vertical skak Ñкакать skakatʹ ``skip; jump; hop; gallop; be unsteady'' -- FIXIT dubious vlagi vulva [] влагалище vlagaliÅe ``vagina'' -- FIXIT dubious Russian source word missing in original gismu etymology file ------------------ CHANGES — NOT DUBIOUS ------------------ cikna awake nispat не Ñпать ne spatʹ ``not to sleep'' drudi roof dric крыша kryÅ¡a ``roof'' correct transcription ``kric'' dukse excess lic лишний liÅ¡nij ``excessive'' fulta float nistis неÑтиÑÑŒ nestisʹ ``lay; rush; tear along; tear'' -- cf. ноÑитьÑÑ nositʹsâ ''rush; rush about *ненаправл.*; scud (along) *направл.*; skim (along, over); gallop (*Ñкакать*); fly (*летать*); *float, drift (по воде, в воздухе)*'' (imperfective form of неÑтиÑÑŒ; source: http://lingvo.yandex.ru/) gunka work trudis трудитьÑÑ truditʹsâ ``work; toil; labour; be working; bother; take the trouble'' -- correct transcription ``trud'' katna cut kas коÑить kositʹ ``mow; mow down'' -- cf. коÑа kosa ``scythe'' kluza loose blusk блузка bluzka ``blouse'' kramu acre deklatin деÑÑтина desâtina ``tithe; dessiatina'' -- measure of land equivalent to 2,7 acres (source: http://www.rambler.ru/dict/) correct transcription ``desiatin'' nibli necessitate vavlik вовлекать vovlekatʹ ``draw; involve'' -- cf. влечь vleÄʹ ``drag, pull; necessitate (math.)'' (derivation source) patfu father pad папа papa ``dad'' -- correct transcription ``pap; cf. папочка papoÄka ``dad (variant) tamne cousin kuzinz кузина kuzina ``cousin (female)'' -- correct transcription ``kuzin(a)'' tunba sibling [] Russian source word missing in original gismu etymology file: -- no Russian equivalent cf. Ñиблинг sibling ``sibling (scientific; rare)'' venfu revenge vimie вымещать vymeÅatʹ ``avenge; take it out on'' -- correct transcription ``vimiec'' vibna vagina blagalic влагалище vlagaliÅe ``vagina'' -- correct transcription ``vlagalic'' -- mu'o mi'e mublin. To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list-request@lojban.org with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help.
Posted by Anonymous on Mon 16 of Jun, 2008 06:02 GMT On Mon, Apr 14, 2008 at 2:13 PM, Bob LeChevalier <lojbab@lojban.org> wrote: > I spotted this one. Here is the full etymology (which includes words that > were run but yielded a lesser score) > > vulva i20a > Chinese wai\yin- (uaiiin) > English vulva (valva) pudend-um (piudend) cunt (kant) > Hindi bhag (bag) cut (cut) > Spanish vuvla (vulva) cun~o (kuno) "coño" > From the orginal etymology sheet: > Note: "This is a good concept but hard to look up because many lang's with > masc/fem endings simply have a root that implies this and the ending > specifies whether you mean "brother" or "sister". e.f. S. hermos-a; "hermana" mu'o mi'e xorxes To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list-request@lojban.org with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help.
Posted by lojbab on Mon 16 of Jun, 2008 06:02 GMT posts: 162 Jorge Llambas wrote: > On Mon, Apr 14, 2008 at 2:13 PM, Bob LeChevalier <lojbab@lojban.org> wrote: > > >>I spotted this one. Here is the full etymology (which includes words that >>were run but yielded a lesser score) >> >>vulva i20a >>Chinese wai\yin- (uaiiin) >>English vulva (valva) pudend-um (piudend) cunt (kant) >>Hindi bhag (bag) cut (cut) >>Spanish vulva (vulva) cun~o (kuno) > > "coo" > >>From the orginal etymology sheet: >>Note: "This is a good concept but hard to look up because many lang's with >>masc/fem endings simply have a root that implies this and the ending >>specifies whether you mean "brother" or "sister". e.f. S. hermos-a; > > "hermana" The note was probably by Tommy Whitlock, who didn't do the Spanish. Since Nora ended up finding a different word, this error turns out not to matter. Probably he got it confused by the neighboring street name here, which is Hermosa. But you clearly show the limitations of our word-making work. lojbab To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list-request@lojban.org with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help.
Posted by mublin on Mon 16 of Jun, 2008 06:02 GMT posts: 20 On Mon, Apr 14, 2008 at 01:13:13PM -0400, Bob LeChevalier wrote: > vulva i20a > Chinese wai\yin- (uaiiin) > English vulva (valva) pudend-um (piudend) cunt (kant) > Hindi bhag (bag) cut (cut) > Spanish vuvla (vulva) cun~o (kuno) > Russian (no equivalent word in dictionary) > Arabic farj (farj) Thanks, Russian source word removed (kept a comment about влагалище). This also confirms the reconstructed Chinese source word, which was dubious. > >tunba sibling [] > Chinese tong/bao- (tunbau) = same parents (i had some 10 other > possibilities listed on th back > English sibling (siblin) > Hindi sahodar (saxodar) = uterine t. i. same mother > Spanish emparentad-o (emparentad) > Russian and Arabic no usable equivalent Also confirms Chinese. > Note: "This is a good concept but hard to look up because many > lang's with masc/fem endings simply have a root that implies this > and the ending specifies whether you mean "brother" or > "sister". e.f. S. hermos-a; A. ult, ulta. I think it would be good > for L. to have such, using m/f affixes when necessary" <off-topic> "when necessary." — Unlike its equivalents in many languages, ``tunba'' gives us an option to qualify by gender, rather than forcing us to do so. In this light, it would have been even better to eliminate the redundant ``bruna and ``mensi. </off-topic> -- mu'o mi'e mublin. To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list-request@lojban.org with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help.
Posted by lojbab on Mon 16 of Jun, 2008 06:02 GMT posts: 162 mublin wrote: > <off-topic> > > "when necessary." — Unlike its equivalents in many languages, > ``tunba'' gives us an option to qualify by gender, rather than forcing > us to do so. In this light, it would have been even better to > eliminate the redundant ``bruna and ``mensi. > > </off-topic> If the goal at the time had been to truly design a new language, we probably would have seriously considered doing so. But Lojban was being created as a negotiating position with language inventor JCB, and thus we strove for backwards compatibility and did not reinvent anything that we didn't feel had to be reinvented. The words in JCBs lexicon that we eliminated were words that should never have been gismu by any argument, but were created at the time when there wasn't a true morphological distinction between roots and compounds (and no fu'ivla space), so there were gismu-shaped fu'ivla and what we would consider lujvo shaped fu'ivla. (e.g. "bilra" = "billiards" and "futbo" = "football" (never defined as to whether this meant American or soccer). lojbab To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list-request@lojban.org with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help.
