Lojban In General

mublin wrote:
>>> vlagi vulva
>>
>><vlagi> sounds very close to <*влаг*алище>=vagina
>
> Added, leaving the Lojbanisation field blank, and marked dubious.

I spotted this one. Here is the full etymology (which includes words
that were run but yielded a lesser score)

vulva i20a
Chinese wai\yin- (uaiiin)
English vulva (valva) pudend-um (piudend) cunt (kant)
Hindi bhag (bag) cut (cut)
Spanish vuvla (vulva) cun~o (kuno)
Russian (no equivalent word in dictionary)
Arabic farj (farj)

note: "add this or genitals"
(genitals was run separately and apparently yielded a lower scoring word).
We also considered using a lujvo based on vagina-lip

> kluza loose blusk
> блузка bluzka ``blouse''

I should not on this that JCB is the source of conflating loose and
blouse (properly "bloused"). The concept "blouse" here is not the
female garment, but a loose upper garment. (Sailors of either gender
apparently wear blouses).

> kramu acre deklatin
> десятина desâtina ``tithe; dessiatina''
> --
> measure of land equivalent to 2,7 acres (source: http://www.rambler.ru/dict/)
> correct transcription ``desiatin''

Note that the intent is that Russian word would probably be made into a
lujvo based on rusko-kramu

> tunba sibling []
> Russian source word missing in original gismu etymology file:
> --
> no Russian equivalent
> cf. сиблинг sibling ``sibling (scientific; rare)''

From the orginal etymology sheet:
Note: "This is a good concept but hard to look up because many lang's
with masc/fem endings simply have a root that implies this and the
ending specifies whether you mean "brother" or "sister". e.f. S.
hermos-a; A. ult, ulta. I think it would be good for L. to have such,
using m/f affixes when necessary"

Chinese tong/bao- (tunbau) = same parents (i had some 10 other
possibilities listed on th back
English sibling (siblin)
Hindi sahodar (saxodar) = uterine t. i. same mother
Spanish emparentad-o (emparentad)
Russian and Arabic no usable equivalent

> vibna vagina blagalic
> влагалище vlagaliŝe ``vagina''
> --
> correct transcription ``vlagalic''

I saw this one go by, but no time now to type in the etymology.

lojbab

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Jorge Llambas wrote:
> On Mon, Apr 14, 2008 at 2:13 PM, Bob LeChevalier <lojbab@lojban.org> wrote:
>
>
>>I spotted this one. Here is the full etymology (which includes words that
>>were run but yielded a lesser score)
>>
>>vulva i20a
>>Chinese wai\yin- (uaiiin)
>>English vulva (valva) pudend-um (piudend) cunt (kant)
>>Hindi bhag (bag) cut (cut)
>>Spanish vulva (vulva) cun~o (kuno)
>
> "coo"
>
>>From the orginal etymology sheet:
>>Note: "This is a good concept but hard to look up because many lang's with
>>masc/fem endings simply have a root that implies this and the ending
>>specifies whether you mean "brother" or "sister". e.f. S. hermos-a;
>
> "hermana"

The note was probably by Tommy Whitlock, who didn't do the Spanish.
Since Nora ended up finding a different word, this error turns out not
to matter. Probably he got it confused by the neighboring street name
here, which is Hermosa.

But you clearly show the limitations of our word-making work.

lojbab

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mublin wrote:
> The list of Russian source words 1 has been updated. Many thanks to
> everybody who has helped with this effort.
>
> The entire list has been checked against Evgeny's work 2; many
> missing words have been added and erroneous reconstructions
> corrected. Proposals made on this list have also been incorporated.
>
> The English translations for the Russian source words have been
> improved.
>
> A list of known problems is included at the very end of this message,
> help with any of these would be much appreciated.

My wife helped me find and dig out the great Tome of Etymology from
where it was buried. I spent a few minutes comparing what you had with
what was in the book, and had no complaints about the dozen odd words I
looked up.

Alas, a serious effort to use the book to solve your problems will take
much time. The hundreds of sheets are not ordered in any way and are
not indexed. There are 4 words to the typical page in no particular
order, and thus the pages couldn't be ordered if I wanted to. The only
way I will find the missing and problem words is pretty much to go
through a page at a time.

I still have the Russian dictionary we used for the original work as well.

I'll see if I can make an effort on it in the next week or two.

lojbab

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Thank you all, the Russian etymology has been amended.

https://www.dealloc.org/~mublin/lojban-source-words_ru/

All Russian source words have been reconstructed, although 4-5 words
remain dubious. The changed entries in the Russian source word list
are included at the end of this message.

On Sat, Apr 12, 2008 at 05:08:32PM -0400, Bob LeChevalier wrote:
> My wife helped me find and dig out the great Tome of Etymology from
> where it was buried. I spent a few minutes comparing what you had
> with what was in the book, and had no complaints about the dozen odd
> words I looked up.

Many thanks, I'm happy to hear that.

> Alas, a serious effort to use the book to solve your problems will
> take much time. The hundreds of sheets are not ordered in any way
> and are not indexed. There are 4 words to the typical page in no
> particular order, and thus the pages couldn't be ordered if I wanted
> to. The only way I will find the missing and problem words is
> pretty much to go through a page at a time.
>
> I still have the Russian dictionary we used for the original work as
> well.
>
> I'll see if I can make an effort on it in the next week or two.

I wouldn't have asked for it given the amount of work required. If you
do find the time to clarify some of the dubious or missing source
words, it would be much appreciated!

The most interesting gismu for the Russian etymology would be genja,
sraji, vlagi.

The gismu with missing source words are:

Spanish:

tanxe (box) trank

Chinese:

cicna (cyan) cian
ckunu (conifer) cieugue
lunsa (condense) lu
milxe (mild) xe
skiji (ski) xuaciueji (only the last component ``ji'' is unaccounted for)
tarla (tar) ta
tenfa (exponential) cenfan
vrici (miscellaneous) ci

The numbers of dubious or missing source words in all etymologies are:

Chinese: 47
English: 3
Russian: 5
Spanish: 10

These are marked with "FIXIT" both in the plain text and in the HTML
version.

On Sat, Apr 12, 2008 at 08:45:12PM +0400, Dmitry Shintyakov wrote:
> > > venfu revenge vimie
>
> .i mi na briti .i pe'i zoi .ry вымещать .ry. mapti .i ta'o ri voksa
> smuni zoi jy. vymiescat .jy

ki'e doi dmitris .i ba'o se jmina

On Sat, Apr 12, 2008 at 03:29:26PM +0100, Evgeny Sklyanin wrote:
> > sraji vertical skak
>
> Bizarre. "скакать" means "to jump" but why here?

Added and marked dubious. Who knows, the dictionary used originally
might have listed a phrase involving скакать under "vertical".

snip

> > genja root slov
>
> <слово> means <word> . My guess is that here <genja> got somehow
> mixed with <gismu>="root word"

Added and marked dubious.

> > sorgu sorghum
>
> сорго

Added, leaving the Lojbanisation field blank. The original gismu
etymology says:

> x17b sorgu 66.20 sorghum 1/2o
> typo should have been sargu, loses all Chinese and Hindi
> sorgu 32.80 0 4 0 4 4 0

so {sorgu} must have been derived from

English ``sorghum''
Spanish ``sorgo''
Russian ``сорго''

which had nonzero scores.

> > tunba sibling
>
> No Russian equivalent. In scientific literature one can find сиблинг

I'll assume there was no Russian source word then; mentioned сиблинг
only in the comment field.

> > vlagi vulva
>
> <vlagi> sounds very close to <*влаг*алище>=vagina

Added, leaving the Lojbanisation field blank, and marked dubious.

> > binxo become dien
> > денется denetsâ ``???''
>
> денется is a finite form of the verb деться = to dissapear, to go away. Yes,
> it looks like a poor choice for <binxo>. It was just an attempt to account
> for the final <n> in dien.
>
> On the other hand, if we assume that the original choice was diel, and the
> final <l> was somehow corrupted, it makes much more sense: *дел*аться = to
> become

I see. Actually, this seems more probable to me because of the clear
semantic correspondence and the frequency of single letter typos in
the Lojbanisations. Changed to делаться, marked dubious, with a
comment about bad transcription and mention of денется as an
alternative reconstruction possibility.

Here come the changes. The five Russian source words still marked
dubious are listed first. (Actually, sorgu < сорго isn't really
dubious except for the fact that the Lojbanised form is not reported.)

------------------
CHANGES — DUBIOUS
------------------

binxo become dien
делаться delatʹsâ ``become; get; grow''
--
FIXIT dubious
source: http://www.rambler.ru/dict/
correct transcription ``diel''
cf. денется denetsâ ``finite form of the verb деться = to
disappear, to go away'' (variant)

genja root slov
слово slovo ``word''
--
FIXIT dubious
possibly by confusion with ``gismu''

sorgu sorghum []
сорго sorgo ``sorghum''
--
FIXIT dubious
Russian source word missing in original gismu etymology file

sraji vertical skak
скакать skakatʹ ``skip; jump; hop; gallop; be unsteady''
--
FIXIT dubious

vlagi vulva []
влагалище vlagaliŝe ``vagina''
--
FIXIT dubious
Russian source word missing in original gismu etymology file

------------------
CHANGES — NOT DUBIOUS
------------------

cikna awake nispat
не спать ne spatʹ ``not to sleep''

drudi roof dric
крыша kryša ``roof''
correct transcription ``kric''

dukse excess lic
лишний lišnij ``excessive''

fulta float nistis
нестись nestisʹ ``lay; rush; tear along; tear''
--
cf. носиться nositʹsâ ''rush; rush about *ненаправл.*; scud (along)
*направл.*; skim (along, over); gallop (*скакать*); fly (*летать*);
*float, drift (по воде, в воздухе)*'' (imperfective form of нестись;
source: http://lingvo.yandex.ru/)

gunka work trudis
трудиться truditʹsâ ``work; toil; labour; be working; bother; take the trouble''
--
correct transcription ``trud''

katna cut kas
косить kositʹ ``mow; mow down''
--
cf. коса kosa ``scythe''

kluza loose blusk
блузка bluzka ``blouse''

kramu acre deklatin
десятина desâtina ``tithe; dessiatina''
--
measure of land equivalent to 2,7 acres (source: http://www.rambler.ru/dict/)
correct transcription ``desiatin''

nibli necessitate vavlik
вовлекать vovlekatʹ ``draw; involve''
--
cf. влечь vlečʹ ``drag, pull; necessitate (math.)'' (derivation source)

patfu father pad
папа papa ``dad''
--
correct transcription ``pap; cf. папочка papočka ``dad (variant)

tamne cousin kuzinz
кузина kuzina ``cousin (female)''
--
correct transcription ``kuzin(a)''

tunba sibling []
Russian source word missing in original gismu etymology file:
--
no Russian equivalent
cf. сиблинг sibling ``sibling (scientific; rare)''

venfu revenge vimie
вымещать vymeŝatʹ ``avenge; take it out on''
--
correct transcription ``vimiec''

vibna vagina blagalic
влагалище vlagaliŝe ``vagina''
--
correct transcription ``vlagalic''

--
mu'o mi'e mublin.

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On Mon, Apr 14, 2008 at 2:13 PM, Bob LeChevalier <lojbab@lojban.org> wrote:

> I spotted this one. Here is the full etymology (which includes words that
> were run but yielded a lesser score)
>
> vulva i20a
> Chinese wai\yin- (uaiiin)
> English vulva (valva) pudend-um (piudend) cunt (kant)
> Hindi bhag (bag) cut (cut)
> Spanish vuvla (vulva) cun~o (kuno)

"coño"

> From the orginal etymology sheet:
> Note: "This is a good concept but hard to look up because many lang's with
> masc/fem endings simply have a root that implies this and the ending
> specifies whether you mean "brother" or "sister". e.f. S. hermos-a;

"hermana"

mu'o mi'e xorxes

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Jorge Llambas wrote:
> On Mon, Apr 14, 2008 at 2:13 PM, Bob LeChevalier <lojbab@lojban.org> wrote:
>
>
>>I spotted this one. Here is the full etymology (which includes words that
>>were run but yielded a lesser score)
>>
>>vulva i20a
>>Chinese wai\yin- (uaiiin)
>>English vulva (valva) pudend-um (piudend) cunt (kant)
>>Hindi bhag (bag) cut (cut)
>>Spanish vulva (vulva) cun~o (kuno)
>
> "coo"
>
>>From the orginal etymology sheet:
>>Note: "This is a good concept but hard to look up because many lang's with
>>masc/fem endings simply have a root that implies this and the ending
>>specifies whether you mean "brother" or "sister". e.f. S. hermos-a;
>
> "hermana"

The note was probably by Tommy Whitlock, who didn't do the Spanish.
Since Nora ended up finding a different word, this error turns out not
to matter. Probably he got it confused by the neighboring street name
here, which is Hermosa.

But you clearly show the limitations of our word-making work.

lojbab

To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list-request@lojban.org
with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if
you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help.

On Mon, Apr 14, 2008 at 01:13:13PM -0400, Bob LeChevalier wrote:
> vulva i20a
> Chinese wai\yin- (uaiiin)
> English vulva (valva) pudend-um (piudend) cunt (kant)
> Hindi bhag (bag) cut (cut)
> Spanish vuvla (vulva) cun~o (kuno)
> Russian (no equivalent word in dictionary)
> Arabic farj (farj)

Thanks, Russian source word removed (kept a comment about
влагалище). This also confirms the reconstructed Chinese source word,
which was dubious.

> >tunba sibling []
> Chinese tong/bao- (tunbau) = same parents (i had some 10 other
> possibilities listed on th back
> English sibling (siblin)
> Hindi sahodar (saxodar) = uterine t. i. same mother
> Spanish emparentad-o (emparentad)
> Russian and Arabic no usable equivalent

Also confirms Chinese.

> Note: "This is a good concept but hard to look up because many
> lang's with masc/fem endings simply have a root that implies this
> and the ending specifies whether you mean "brother" or
> "sister". e.f. S. hermos-a; A. ult, ulta. I think it would be good
> for L. to have such, using m/f affixes when necessary"

<off-topic>

"when necessary." — Unlike its equivalents in many languages,
``tunba'' gives us an option to qualify by gender, rather than forcing
us to do so. In this light, it would have been even better to
eliminate the redundant ``bruna and ``mensi.

</off-topic>

--
mu'o mi'e mublin.

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mublin wrote:
> <off-topic>
>
> "when necessary." — Unlike its equivalents in many languages,
> ``tunba'' gives us an option to qualify by gender, rather than forcing
> us to do so. In this light, it would have been even better to
> eliminate the redundant ``bruna and ``mensi.
>
> </off-topic>

If the goal at the time had been to truly design a new language, we
probably would have seriously considered doing so. But Lojban was being
created as a negotiating position with language inventor JCB, and thus
we strove for backwards compatibility and did not reinvent anything that
we didn't feel had to be reinvented. The words in JCBs lexicon that we
eliminated were words that should never have been gismu by any argument,
but were created at the time when there wasn't a true morphological
distinction between roots and compounds (and no fu'ivla space), so there
were gismu-shaped fu'ivla and what we would consider lujvo shaped
fu'ivla. (e.g. "bilra" = "billiards" and "futbo" = "football" (never
defined as to whether this meant American or soccer).

lojbab

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