Fwd: lojban and raising a child bi-lingual
mi pensi lo du'u ro do pe'i nelci ti
---- Forwarded message ----
From: d'Armond Speers <speersd@georgetown.edu>
Date: Mon, Aug 24, 2009 at 11:17 PM
Subject: Re: lojban and raising a child bi-lingual
To: Luke Bergen <lukeabergen@gmail.com>
Hi Luke,
I know what you mean about people not answering. Oh well. The problem with
me is getting me to shut up. 
Please feel free to forward my e-mail to anyone you like. There is at least
one person I know of who was proficient in both Klingon and Lojban. (I know
he is fluent in Klingon, but I cannot judge his proficiency in Lojban). If
Mark Shoulson is on your list, he also knows a lot about Alec, and has met
him a few times.
If any questions for me come up through your discussion, feel free to
forward them on.
Oh, the other thing I should have mentioned in my previous reply, is that
you should be fairly thick-skinned to do something like this. I may have
gotten more heat because people are familiar with the "bad guy" status of
Klingons, but just the idea of raising a child to speak a constructed
language may raise people's ire. I got all kinds of criticism, all of it
ridiculous. And a fair amount of mocking. (My favorite mocking came from
Howard Stern, which put William Shatner in the position of defending me,
which was a hoot!).
Regards,
--d'Armond
On Aug 24, 2009, at 12:23 PM, Luke Bergen wrote:
Thanks for your reply! I honestly only half expected one. Whenever I have
emailed people that I don't know in the past the email address has either
become old and un-used or they just don't reply for one reason or another.
I appreciate the advice. Part of the reason I looked you up now is because
I have a couple of years to prepare. I'll take your advice and learn as
much vocabulary as possible in that time.
The lojban community actually is fairly large and there have been quite a
few works translated thus far. It is a rather small community compared to
natlang communities but hopefully things like video-conferencing etc... will
help me expose my kids to other speakers even if only a little bit.
After I mentioned my intentions with my kids we (the folks in the lojban irc
channel and mailing list) started wondering about your endeavors to teach
Alec Klingon. Would you mind if I forwarded your response on to the lojban
mailing list? I'm sure they would find it fascinating as several of them
also speak klingon (although I do not).
On Mon, Aug 24, 2009 at 12:08 PM, d'Armond Speers <speersd@georgetown.edu>wrote:
>
> Hi Luke, thanks for writing!
>
> I spoke to Alec using only Klingon from the time he was born, until he was
> almost 3 years. While he was clearly understanding me and starting to speak
> a little, ultimately it was unsuccessful. I can give you the reasons why I
> think I failed, and you can go from there.
>
> The first problem I encountered was vocabulary. Klingon has lots of words
> for things like shuttlecraft, phaser, transporter ionization unit, but not a
> lot of words that are practical on a daily basis with a baby / toddler. The
> most immediate things are words like diaper, crib, bottle, milk, potty,
> bath, and so on. I found myself improvising in a lot of cases, and it would
> have been better if I had been more prepared. When Alec was about 2 years
> old, a new book came out with a lot of new vocabulary, and all of a sudden
> we had words for things that we didn't have before, like "table", "window",
> and so on. On the one hand that helped, but it also meant that I had to
> change some words I had been using, which was confusing (both for him and
> me). The better prepared you are with vocabulary, the better.
>
> The second main problem was that I was the only one in his environment who
> spoke Klingon. One time I had a friend visit who spoke Klingon and Alec was
> enthralled. But at the time he was still too young to take advantage of it,
> and the visit was short, only a day. The more practical, day-to-day
> exposure to as many speakers as possible that you can get, the better.
>
> Another aspect of this is that speaking Klingon was an extra, unnecessary
> effort for him. It was obvious that I also speak English, as I spoke it
> with my wife and everyone else, except him. In studies of bilingualism, the
> kids who tend to achieve fluency in multiple languages didn't have a choice,
> such as grandparents who only spoke a different language than the main
> language of the community or household. If your wife can speak Lojban, you
> can make Lojban the language of the household.
>
> Some things that worked:
>
> We played a game where I would name body parts and he would point to them.
> {nuqDaq 'oH ghItlhlIj'e'?} ("where's your nose?"), {nuqDaq 'oH
> qevpobwIj'e'?"} ("where's my cheek"). This is a pretty simple game, easy to
> learn and play, and it sets up a good sentence pattern for later
> interactions ("where's your/my/his XX?")
>
> Every night at bedtime, as part of his daily routine, we would sing a
> "lullaby" in Klingon, the Klingon Imperial Anthem {taHjaj wo'}. (I don't
> think the composer ever thought it would be used as a lullaby!) He got so
> good at this, he was better at 2-1/2 than most adult speakers of the
> language, due to the daily practice. Pick (or translate) something that can
> be done every day. Doesn't have to be a bedtime thing, just so long as it
> becomes a daily routine. At first it should not change, it should be the
> same thing every day, but later you can start to change it. Make it fun.
>
> I spoke Klingon with Alec everywhere: at the store, in the park, in the
> house, etc. It didn't matter whether there were other people around and if
> they gave me strange looks. Most people don't recognize Klingon for what it
> is, they just assumed it was some other language they didn't know. You
> don't need to explain yourself to anyone, just have fun with it. In some
> cases it may be easier NOT to explain what you're doing! Fewer people know
> of Lojban than Klingon, so you'll find yourself answering lots of the same
> questions over again. You might print out a little business card-sized note
> that you can hand to people who are truly curious, with answers to common
> questions and a link to a website. This can save your sanity.
>
> Just before Alec was 3 years old I stopped, because he was starting to
> resist. I could see that he was becoming unhappy, and this wasn't worth it
> to me. Especially as your child becomes more vocal and communicative, pay
> careful attention to their attitude and behavior. You'll have to decide for
> yourself how far you want to take it and how hard you want to try, but don't
> overdo it. If it works, great, but if not, don't force it.
>
> At the very least, document what you're doing, the vocabulary you use, and
> all the progress you make. You'll be asked about this for years to come,
> especially if you're successful. If there's an active community of
> Lojbanists (sorry, don't know much about it), enlist their help with any
> challenges you face (how DO you say "dirty diaper" in Lojban?). Anyone else
> raise their kids speaking Lojban, or who have made Lojban the language of
> their household? Since you've got a few years to prepare, you can translate
> a collection of children's books, to have ready. Most first readers are
> more about the pictures and have simple words and phrases; it's a great
> place to start.
>
> Hope this is helpful. I know it's a few years off, but please feel free to
> keep in touch and let me know how it's going!
>
> --d'Armond
>
> On Aug 24, 2009, at 9:24 AM, Luke Bergen wrote:
>
> Hello Dr. Speers, I'm a new/intermediate speaker of the constructed
> language Lojban (http://www.lojban.org) and am planning on trying to have
> kids with my wife in a few years. I started toying with the idea of trying
> to raise our future children bi-lingual lojban-english by my speaking only
> lojban and my wife only speaking english when I heard about your endeavors
> to raise Alec bi-lingual Klingon-English using a similar method.
>
> I was just wondering if you have any advice/precautions given your
> experiences with Alec in this area.
>
>
> d'Armond Speers, Ph.D.
> speersd@georgetown.edu
>
>
>
>
>
d'Armond Speers, Ph.D.
speersd@georgetown.edu