History: Using Undefined Gismu as Names

Source of version: 2 (current)

{CODE(wrap="1")}[09:07] <tomoj> why shouldn't morphological gismu that aren't actually gismu be acceptable names? [09:07] <vensa> who said they shouldnt? [09:08] <tomoj> like {la tomjo} [09:08] <vensa> tomoj: who said you cant? [09:08] <vensa> I'm all for it [09:08] <tomoj> uhh [09:08] <tomoj> it is not orthodox [09:08] <vensa> tomoj: says who? [09:08] <vensa> maybe nobody thought of it yet [09:08] <vensa> I like it [09:08] <lindar> People have. [09:09] <lindar> What if that name ends up getting used? [09:09] <tomoj> then you wind up with a probably interesting description-based name [09:09] <vensa> yep [09:10] <selckiku> i'll say it, i don't think that's a sensible thing to do [09:10] <selckiku> it slightly confuses me and it's new, so i'm opposed to it [09:10] <tomoj> me neither, now that I think about it [09:10] <vensa> just like what if your name ends up being a meaningful rafsi combination [09:10] <vensa> selckiku: you opposed to new things in general? [09:10] <tomoj> the grammar says you can stick a selbri after LA [09:10] <vensa> or just things that confuse you ? :P [09:10] <lindar> Like what if Broca actually uses {la broca}, and then in a year suddenly we start a gismu {broca} that means "x1 is a puss/wimp that can't do x2 and licks giant sweaty balls x3 while being sodomised in orifice x4 by big sloppy dong x5.". [09:10] <tomoj> if *{tomjo} counts as a selbri, then I should be able to use it outside of names too [09:11] <vensa> tomoj: you CAN [09:11] <vensa> it just want make SEMANTIC sense [09:11] <vensa> .u'i lindar [09:11] <lindar> Then suddenly he's named "the pussy that can't do shit and licks giant sweaty balls while being sodomised by a big sloppy dong.". [09:11] <lindar> That's my only issue, really. [09:11] <selckiku> i'm not really opposed to new things, i was kidding or something [09:12] <selckiku> but honestly that doesn't make much sense to me... description names are lojban words, not just random lojbanny shaped thingies [09:12] <vensa> lindar: <vensa> just like what if your name ends up being a meaningful rafsi combination [09:12] <lindar> Sure, something like that. [09:12] <vensa> lindar: so it can happen to cmelva too [09:12] * lindar is actually named Lindar, and finds the coincidence hilarious. [09:12] <vensa> valsi affix: lin [09:12] <valsi> no results. http://vlasisku.lojban.org/affix%3A+lin [09:12] <vensa> valsi affix: dar [09:12] <valsi> no results. http://vlasisku.lojban.org/affix%3A+dar [09:12] <selckiku> half of my name "mungodjelis" was jvocme so i made that lujvo, djelisri [09:12] <tomoj> it can't happen to cmevla [09:13] <vensa> valsi affix:dar [09:13] <valsi> linsi = x1 is a length of chain/links of material x2 with link properties x3. [09:13] <valsi> darno = x1 is far/distant from x2 in property x3 (ka). [09:13] <vensa> "chain far"! [09:13] <vensa> heh [09:13] <selckiku> lindar, how'd u get a name like "Lindar" anyway? where's that from? [09:13] <lindar> Lord of the Rings. >_> [09:13] * lindar tells non-geeks it's welsh. [09:13] <tomoj> if it's a cmevla, any meaning you associate to it as a rafsi chain is not fixed by the language [09:13] * ctino thinks that is far too awesome. [09:13] <vensa> tomoj: y not. just showed you [09:14] <selckiku> jvocme are a tradition, though... they're not really quite meaningless [09:14] * kucli is a friend of elves [09:14] <tomoj> the language doesn't say that cmevla that look like rafsi components have anything to do with the meanings of the valsi for those rafsi [09:14] <selckiku> it's not meaningless that camgusmis is named "camgusmis", i think about bright lights and fame every time i say it [09:14] <tomoj> right [09:14] <tomoj> it's only by suggestion [09:14] <vensa> tomoj: I recall seeing that it does [09:14] <tomoj> you can tell that their name looks like a rafsi chain and know that they did this on purpose [09:14] <tomoj> but really the language is mute on the subject [09:15] <vensa> perhaps [09:15] <vensa> but it is a PLAUSIBLE option [09:15] <selckiku> i tried to get everyone to call them "jvosmicmevla" but people are saying "jvocme" instead b/c they don't like clajvo, o well [09:15] <vensa> so would it only be PLAUSIBLE that {broca} chose his name according to the gismu of "pussy" [09:15] <Twey> o.@ [09:16] <selckiku> it doesn't have denotative meaning, but it has some connotative meaning [09:16] <tomoj> yeah [09:16] <vensa> whatever that means [09:16] <lindar> We're discussing two different things here. [09:17] <vensa> I'm putting this in the discussions section later :) [09:17] <lindar> I was saying that if somebody names themselves $namethatisanundefinedgismu and then we define that gismu... then what? [09:17] <vensa> selckiku: yes, but with english font [09:17] <vensa> lindar: what difference is that from {lindar} that happens to be a rafsi chain? [09:17] <tomoj> then there name acquires a selbri meaning, so what? [09:17] <vensa> maybe its on purpose, maybe not [09:17] <@Broca> If someone calls themselves $namethatisundefinedgismu _in Lojban_, they're doing it wrong. [09:17] <tomoj> er, their [09:17] <selckiku> it's so multilingual in here! next thing you know we'll actually be culturally neutral [09:17] <lindar> vensa: Because THOSE names have incidental meaning. [09:17] <tomoj> Broca: say {tomjo} [09:18] <vensa> lindar: IMO a gismu name can be incidental as wel [09:18] <vensa> as long as it's "la selbri" [09:18] <lindar> If I name myself {donri} then I'm not going to be an asshole and say, "No, I'm not called 'Day', it's just 'donri' the letters.". [09:18] <vensa> maybe I call myself {la ganxo} because I like the sound of it :) [09:18] <lindar> Yeah, no. [09:18] <lindar> Please adhere to a policy of non-gluteality. [09:19] <tomoj> wait, yeah or no? [09:19] <vensa> lindar: some people call their children English names, based solely on the sound, without even knowing the def sometimes [09:19] <lindar> If my name was "Shite", it means "Shite". [09:19] <vensa> ctino: he ivrit shelcha metzuyenet [09:19] <ctino> selckiku: it's nice isn't it? lojban actually has more people from different cultures than I realized. [09:20] <selckiku> someday there'll be thousands of jbopre, and all of the gismu will have been someone's name sometime [09:20] <vensa> tomoj: I suspect the Yeah was cinical (lindarP) :) [09:20] <lindar> If my name is "Rose", then it's fucking "Rose". If my name is "Blue" then my name is "Blue". If your name is {xalbo} then your name is actually {xalbo}. Do you see what I'm saying? [09:20] <vensa> lindar: no [09:20] <lindar> Words have definitions, regardless of whether or not they're also names. [09:20] <selckiku> i think a lot about why la xalbo chose "xalbo" and what it means to him [09:20] <lindar> You don't get to detach the meaning just because you like the -sound- of the name. [09:20] <vensa> lindar: yes [09:20] <selckiku> it's a very interesting choice of name [09:20] <ctino> vensa: todah, haha. [09:21] <lindar> Stop saying no and yes. There's no scale set. It's not a yes or no question. [09:21] <vensa> lindar: but that doesnt mean the definition was intended by the name chooser. agreed? [09:21] <lindar> >_> In this case, yes it fucking does. [09:21] <vensa> what is "this case"?! [09:22] <lindar> Ignore all of the old names like "john" and "mary" and shit that have a meaning but not in English. If you name your kid "Crystal", the kid's name is fucking "Crystal". [09:22] <lindar> It's a word in English with a meaning. [09:22] <vensa> lindar: someone can call their child "auburn" without knowing it's a color [09:22] <vensa> yes it has a meaning [09:22] <lindar> FUCK those people. They shouldn't be allowed to breed. [09:22] <vensa> but some word's meaning are less clear [09:22] <vensa> .u'isai [09:22] <lindar> Bro, Lojban here. [09:23] <lindar> The words are very clear. [09:23] <vensa> all I'm saying is that meaning is not always transparent [09:23] <selckiku> i remember when there was hardly anyone named a gismu [09:23] <vensa> just like you can have nicknames who's original name isnt clear [09:23] <lindar> Dude, your name in English is "Springtime". [09:23] <selckiku> i used to wonder "why don't people choose gismu names? all the gismu are available!" [09:23] <lindar> Guess what it means? [09:23] <vensa> e.g.: larry is short for lawrence. did you know that? [09:23] <lindar> Yes. [09:23] <ksion> coi la kucli [09:23] <ctino> The only reason I use a gismu name is because my alias is Amber Shadow and I didn't want to lojbanize it :3 [09:23] <ksion> coi rodo .enai la lindar no'u se fanza u'i [09:24] <selckiku> "kucli" is a nice gi'ucme [09:24] <selckiku> i've always loved the word "kucli" [09:24] <tomoj> so some names have associated meanings [09:24] <lindar> In Lojban, {selckiku} ACTUALLY means means "lock". [09:24] <tomoj> why does that mean we shouldn't be allowed to use names with no associated meaning? [09:24] <vensa> lindar: are you disagreeing with me when it comes to lojban only? or in english as well? [09:24] <tomoj> cmevla are just that way [09:24] <selckiku> as does "stela", so my name is Lock Lock :D [09:24] <tomoj> why not also selbri-shaped names? [09:24] <vensa> yes! tomoj +1 [09:25] <lindar> >_> [09:25] <ctino> selckiku: I figured that out today xD [09:25] <selckiku> there's no meaning associated with "clsn".. that's a neat shape for a name [09:25] <lindar> The FACT of the matter is that it is DEFINED as "The one named...". [09:25] <tomoj> also, jabberwocky [09:25] <tomoj> a lojban translation of jabberwocky should use morphological selbri that aren't actual selbri [09:25] <lindar> So {la xalbo} is unambiguously DEFINED as "The one named 'levitous-thing'.". That's what it means. [09:26] <tomoj> perhaps some morphological cmavo and fu'ivla too? [09:26] <lindar> You don't get to say, "Ah, no, I don't feel like doing that. I want my name to be a gismu, but I'm special, so it doesn't actually mean that for me.". [09:26] <vensa> lindar: all im saying is that it doesnt neccessarily mean that {la xalbo} is aware of the meaning of his name, or wether he chose it BECAUSE of its meaning [09:26] <tomoj> sure you do [09:26] <lindar> la donri is "The one named 'Day'.". [09:26] <vensa> of course he did in this case [09:26] <tomoj> we get to pick our own names [09:26] <vensa> but it doesnt have to be [09:26] <lindar> >_> [09:26] <selckiku> the translation of jabberwocky we have is by xorxes right? [09:26] <lindar> YES IT DOES [09:26] <tomoj> if I want to be named 'fatass', why can't I be? [09:27] <lindar> THAT'S HOW IT'S FUCKING WRITTEN IN THE BOOK THAT TELLS US HOW TO SPEAK LOJBAN [09:27] <lindar> IT -DOES- HAVE TO BE [09:27] <vensa> lindar: where?! [09:27] <tomoj> jeebus [09:27] <selckiku> WHY ARE WE YELLING [09:27] <tomoj> take a chill pill [09:27] <ctino> BECAUSE YELLING IS FUN [09:27] <vensa> lindar: the book doesnt tell us what to THINK [09:27] <ctino> u'i [09:27] <tomoj> there's some candy like tic-tacs called "chill", lol [09:28] <ctino> I love tic-tacs. [09:28] <vensa> seems like any discussion involving me and lindar can never come to an end :) [09:28] <ctino> Haha. [09:28] <vensa> or is it just lindar and anybody? :P [09:29] <vensa> or me and anybody? [09:29] <ctino> Lindar and anybody. [09:29] <tomoj> unstoppable force + immovable object [09:29] <Twey> ctino: What do you think of that lindar and vensa, eh, eh? [09:29] <vensa> I'm pretty stubborn myself :) [09:29] <vensa> tomoj u'isai [09:29] <ctino> Twey: Entertaining. [09:29] <vensa> :) [09:30] <vensa> lindar is quite so I suspect he actually went to the books [09:30] <vensa> *quiet [09:30] <ctino> Probably. [09:30] <ctino> I know I would have. [09:30] <vensa> when he comes back, all hell will break out [09:30] <ctino> Haha. [09:30] <ctino> The quiet before the storm. [09:30] <vensa> what happens if I leave before he comes back? :P [09:30] <ctino> >___> [09:30] <vensa> .y [09:31] <vensa> shhhhh... "i'm not here..." [09:31] <ctino> So what's the synopsis of this debate? [09:31] <vensa> we'll have to wait for lindar to return for that [09:31] <ksion> vensa: That's mostly because is mutce certu loka fanza ;) [09:31] <vensa> it's not over till the british elf screams [09:32] <ksion> vensa: lindar is* [09:32] <ctino> xD [09:32] <tomoj> wat [09:32] <vensa> ksion: :) [09:33] == zugz [~zugz@193.52.24.4] has joined #lojban [09:33] <lindar> What's up now? [09:33] <ctino> I wanna know what the synopsis of your debate is. [09:33] <lindar> btw: Not to be picky/whiney or anything, but I would appreciate the favour of you referring to be as a spivvak. =/ [09:33] <lindar> *to me as [09:35] <lindar> Short version: If you have a brivla name, you picked it. It always has the meaning. You can't divorce a gismu from the meaning just because it's a name. That's like naming a kid "Hope" and then saying, "It's a really cool name, but I never looked it up to find out what it means.". [09:36] <ctino> Hm. Okay, thanks. [09:36] <tomoj> certainly that's conceivable{CODE} (edited to remove some irrelevant chatter) - lindar