History: la lojban. po'u le lojbo lojbau

Source of version: 2 (current)

I've been thinking about the large number of different ways in ((Lojban language)) to say "Lojban" or something like it. I finally decided to figure out what the differences are. * la ((lojban)). - This refers to the specific language we're speaking. Any other language like ((Lojban language)) which is not ((Lojban language)) itself would not be called Lojban. * ((lojbo)) - Refers to anything Lojbanic. As the ((gi'uste)) says, "x1 reflects [[Loglandic]/Lojbanic language/culture/nationality/community in aspect x2". So a message on the ((jboste)) is ((lojbo)) even if it's in English. And if the whole Lojbanic community suddenly started speaking a different language, that language would be ((lojbo)), but it would not be ((Lojban language)). ** Yup. Hence in the ((Lojban Anthem)), the chorus refers to both ''le bangu'' and ''le terbau'' as ''lojbo''. ** Hence the x2 of ''lojbo'': a message of the mailing list (it is __not__ a ''liste'') would be something like ''lojbo le ka casnu ((ce'u))'' *** Enough people call it the ((jboste)) that the word has acquired a meaning of its own. A ((jboste)) does not necessarily have to be a ((liste)), because of the way lujvo work. ** So doesn't that mean that ((Loglan)) is ((lojbo)) and hence counts as a ''lojbo lojbau''? *** pe'i ja'a go'i .i ke'u va'i la loglan cu lojbo lojbau .i mi'e filip. * ((lojbau)) - This, interestingly enough, means what the word "loglan" supposedly means in English. From the places in the ((lujvo)) list: "x1 is a logical language used by x2 to express/communicate x3". ** If the language is used to describe/talk about a logic, then ''lojbau'' is correct. If it is used to talk about things that a logic talks about, it's a short form of ''selylojbau''. If you mean that a logic is the basis of the language, it is a ''lojyselcmubau''. *** Okay. You sort of have a point there, so say the ((veljvo)) is ''logji se jicmu bangu''. Neither place of ''jicmu'' provides any extra information to the places of this lujvo we're forming, so it's perfectly in accordance with ((seljvajvo)) to omit ''jicmu'', resulting in the lujvo: ''lojbau''. If you don't believe me, look at the "((lange'u|sheepdog))" example in the book. **** ''logji zei selcmu'' -> {j2 j1=l1 l2}, ''lojyselcmu zei bangu'' -> {b1=j2 b2 b3 j1=l1 l2}. At the very least you have to add the l1 place at the end to show what logic it's based on. I suppose you could omit the l2 since it's dependent on the l1. It the last place, so it doesn't matter much anyhow. ***** I wasn't talking about omitting ''logji'', but ''jicmu''. The only __j__-places you have are merged with other places, so omitting ''jicmu'' would not change the place structure. ''lojyselcmu zei bangu'' thus has the same places as ''logji zei bangu'' = ''lojbau''. ****** Similar place structure, but ''logji bangu'' would be something like {b1 b2 b3=l1 l2}. At any rate, they have different meanings, whether or not the place structures are exactly the same. *** a ''bangu fi lo logji'' could be something like those turned A's and E's that logicians use, and ((Lojban language)) is also a system with the same goals, so ((Lojban language)) is a lojbau (which is different, however, from a ''lojyselcmubau''). * la ((loglan)). - This either refers to the predecessor to ((Lojban language)), or a sheep of some sort. ** Which is also officially ''dzelojbo''. ** It does not refer to a sheep; ((cmene)) are not (reliably) analyzable. ** It's not even a valid cmene as it contains the sequence ''la''. * ((jbobau)) - "x1 is a Lojbanic language used by x2 to express/communicate x3". Since the only language that is Lojbanic is ((Lojban language)), ''le jbobau'' = ''la lojban''. I think this is more specific when used in a ((tanru)) than ''lojbau''. It also parallels the use of ''glibau'' in that sense. ** This gives a very short way to ask if someone speaks Lojban: ''xu jbobau do'' ** ''jbo'' is from ''lojbo'', and since ((Loglan)) is ''lojbo'' this means that ''le jbobau'' = ''la lojban. .a la loglan.'' However, it does now exclude ((Gua\spi)), ((Plan B)), and ((Liva)). * ((Lojban language)) may not be the only logical language (logji bangu), but it is the only Lojbanic loglan (lojbo lojbau), giving rise to the rather redundant title of this page. ** Not redundant given ((The Founders|Founders)) polemic ("Lojban __is__ Loglan") --- which later generations, however, haven't paid much mind to. ** Also remember that officially, lojbo includes loglan, according to my gi'uste. So it is still not the only one. --((rab.spir)) ---- Aside, I think it should be ''la lojban. '''no'u''' le lojbo lojbau''. * Perhaps. Does this mean the text on the front page of lojban.org is wrong? I'd go with ''la lojban. no'u le lojbo lojbau noi se cmene zo lojban.'' because so far it has not managed to exclude the ''((Loglan|dzebau))'', which is ''lojbo'' and a ''lojbau'' and thus a ''lojbo lojbau'', as well as a ''jbobau'' because it is certainly a ''bangu'' - '''''la lojban. no'u le lojbo lojbau poi se cmene zo lojban.''''' * I'd at least say that Loglan is less ((lojbo)) than Lojban. Also, I maintain that ''la lojban'' = ''le jbobau''; you made an unfounded assumption that everything that is ''lojbo je bangu'' is ''jbobau''. Lujvo are not tanru. --((rab.spir)) ** There is no relation you can give between lojbo and bangu that excludes loglan. I did read your intended place structure just now - ''x1 is a Lojbanic language used by x2 to express/communicate x3'' still includes Loglan because ''in lojban'' lojbanic (lojbo) includes loglan. Thus loglan is a jbobau - ''.i le dzebau la rabrt.mkaivor (noi ji'a se cmene la rabrt.seriraivor. fau lenu do gleki lenu fanva le paftycmene ku ku ku) da cu jbobau'' for instance. mi'e ((kreig.daniyl.)) *** You can rarely exclude a certain thing from filling a place (in this case, x1) of ''any'' predicate. Sure, Loglan can ''jbobau'', just like a cat box can ''stizu''. That doesn't mean it's what I have in mind when I say ''le jbobau''. **** But you couldn't say someone was worng for interpreting ''le jbobau'' as being ''la lojban. .e la loglan.'' for this is a valid meaning of ''le jbobau''.