la lojban. po'u le lojbo lojbau

I've been thinking about the large number of different ways in Lojban language to say "Lojban" or something like it. I finally decided to figure out what the differences are.

  • la lojban. - This refers to the specific language we're speaking. Any other language like Lojban language which is not Lojban language itself would not be called Lojban.
  • lojbo - Refers to anything Lojbanic. As the gi'uste says, "x1 reflects [Loglandic]/Lojbanic language/culture/nationality/community in aspect x2". So a message on the jboste is lojbo even if it's in English. And if the whole Lojbanic community suddenly started speaking a different language, that language would be lojbo, but it would not be Lojban language.
    • Yup. Hence in the Lojban Anthem, the chorus refers to both le bangu and le terbau as lojbo.
    • Hence the x2 of lojbo: a message of the mailing list (it is not a liste) would be something like lojbo le ka casnu ce'u
      • Enough people call it the jboste that the word has acquired a meaning of its own. A jboste does not necessarily have to be a liste, because of the way lujvo work.
    • So doesn't that mean that Loglan is lojbo and hence counts as a lojbo lojbau?
      • pe'i ja'a go'i .i ke'u va'i la loglan cu lojbo lojbau .i mi'e filip.
  • lojbau - This, interestingly enough, means what the word "loglan" supposedly means in English. From the places in the lujvo list: "x1 is a logical language used by x2 to express/communicate x3".
    • If the language is used to describe/talk about a logic, then lojbau is correct. If it is used to talk about things that a logic talks about, it's a short form of selylojbau. If you mean that a logic is the basis of the language, it is a lojyselcmubau.
      • Okay. You sort of have a point there, so say the veljvo is logji se jicmu bangu. Neither place of jicmu provides any extra information to the places of this lujvo we're forming, so it's perfectly in accordance with seljvajvo to omit jicmu, resulting in the lujvo: lojbau. If you don't believe me, look at the "sheepdog" example in the book.
        • logji zei selcmu -> {j2 j1=l1 l2}, lojyselcmu zei bangu -> {b1=j2 b2 b3 j1=l1 l2}. At the very least you have to add the l1 place at the end to show what logic it's based on. I suppose you could omit the l2 since it's dependent on the l1. It the last place, so it doesn't matter much anyhow.
          • I wasn't talking about omitting logji, but jicmu. The only j-places you have are merged with other places, so omitting jicmu would not change the place structure. lojyselcmu zei bangu thus has the same places as logji zei bangu = lojbau.
            • Similar place structure, but logji bangu would be something like {b1 b2 b3=l1 l2}. At any rate, they have different meanings, whether or not the place structures are exactly the same.
      • a bangu fi lo logji could be something like those turned A's and E's that logicians use, and Lojban language is also a system with the same goals, so Lojban language is a lojbau (which is different, however, from a lojyselcmubau).
  • la loglan. - This either refers to the predecessor to Lojban language, or a sheep of some sort.
    • Which is also officially dzelojbo.
    • It does not refer to a sheep; cmene are not (reliably) analyzable.
    • It's not even a valid cmene as it contains the sequence la.
  • jbobau - "x1 is a Lojbanic language used by x2 to express/communicate x3". Since the only language that is Lojbanic is Lojban language, le jbobau = la lojban. I think this is more specific when used in a tanru than lojbau. It also parallels the use of glibau in that sense.
    • This gives a very short way to ask if someone speaks Lojban: xu jbobau do
    • jbo is from lojbo, and since Loglan is lojbo this means that le jbobau = la lojban. .a la loglan. However, it does now exclude Gua\spi, Plan B, and Liva.
  • Lojban language may not be the only logical language (logji bangu), but it is the only Lojbanic loglan (lojbo lojbau), giving rise to the rather redundant title of this page.
    • Not redundant given Founders polemic ("Lojban is Loglan") --- which later generations, however, haven't paid much mind to.
    • Also remember that officially, lojbo includes loglan, according to my gi'uste. So it is still not the only one.


Aside, I think it should be la lojban. 'no'u' le lojbo lojbau.

  • Perhaps. Does this mean the text on the front page of is wrong?

I'd go with la lojban. no'u le lojbo lojbau noi se cmene zo lojban. because so far it has not managed to exclude the dzebau, which is lojbo and a lojbau and thus a lojbo lojbau, as well as a jbobau because it is certainly a bangu - 'la lojban. no'u le lojbo lojbau poi se cmene zo lojban.'

  • I'd at least say that Loglan is less lojbo than Lojban. Also, I maintain that la lojban = le jbobau; you made an unfounded assumption that everything that is lojbo je bangu is jbobau. Lujvo are not tanru. --rab.spir
    • There is no relation you can give between lojbo and bangu that excludes loglan. I did read your intended place structure just now - x1 is a Lojbanic language used by x2 to express/communicate x3 still includes Loglan because in lojban lojbanic (lojbo) includes loglan. Thus loglan is a jbobau - .i le dzebau la rabrt.mkaivor (noi ji'a se cmene la rabrt.seriraivor. fau lenu do gleki lenu fanva le paftycmene ku ku ku) da cu jbobau for instance. mi'e kreig.daniyl.
      • You can rarely exclude a certain thing from filling a place (in this case, x1) of any predicate. Sure, Loglan can jbobau, just like a cat box can stizu. That doesn't mean it's what I have in mind when I say le jbobau.
        • But you couldn't say someone was worng for interpreting le jbobau as being la lojban. .e la loglan. for this is a valid meaning of le jbobau.

Created by livais. Last Modification: Monday 22 of September, 2003 19:52:50 GMT by livais.