WikiDiscuss

Posted by arj on Thu 16 of Nov, 2006 11:38 GMT posts: 953

Yanis has identified a potential problem with the definition of "di'o". Specifically, the x1 of di'o is said to not match the x1 of diklo.

Is this the right place to post this kind of concern? Will we remember it when the time comes to review the whole thing?

-arj

Posted by arj on Thu 16 of Nov, 2006 11:43 GMT posts: 953

> Yanis has identified a potential problem with the definition of "di'o". Specifically, the x1 of di'o is said to not match the x1 of diklo.

Part of his message (from the main mailing list) reposted here:

--------------

The definition and the examples seem very dubious for me, because {diklo} is
defined as "x1 is local to x2; x1 is confined to locus x2 within range x3".
{di'o} marks x1 of {diklo}, i. e. something that is local or confined to a
locus. So {broda di'o da} means that there is / happens {broda} such that
{da} is confined to its locus. Consider the example {mi se jibri le sampla
di'o la ibubymym}. If {la ibumbum} is x1 of {diklo}, then {la ibumbum} is
confined to a locus of where the person works with software. The sentence
actually means that the whole IBM is local to where the person works with
software! That is something different from "I work with software at IBM"...

I hope you got my English.

mi'e .ianis

On 11/16/06, arj <wikidiscuss@lojban.org> wrote:
>
> Is this the right place to post this kind of concern? Will we remember
> it when the time comes to review the whole thing?

Maybe a new page with errata/points-to-discuss? I never seem to
be able to find anything posted on Wiki-discuss threads.

mu'o mi'e xorxes

Posted by lojbab on Thu 16 of Nov, 2006 12:44 GMT posts: 162

arj wrote:
> Re: Re: BPFK Section: Tense sumtcita as of 16 Jun 2005
>
>>Yanis has identified a potential problem with the definition of "di'o". Specifically, the x1 of di'o is said to not match the x1 of diklo.
>
>
> Part of his message (from the main mailing list) reposted here:
>
> --------------
>
> The definition and the examples seem very dubious for me, because {diklo} is
> defined as "x1 is local to x2; x1 is confined to locus x2 within range x3".
> {di'o} marks x1 of {diklo}, i. e. something that is local or confined to a
> locus. So {broda di'o da} means that there is / happens {broda} such that
> {da} is confined to its locus. Consider the example {mi se jibri le sampla
> di'o la ibubymym}. If {la ibumbum} is x1 of {diklo}, then {la ibumbum} is
> confined to a locus of where the person works with software. The sentence
> actually means that the whole IBM is local to where the person works with
> software! That is something different from "I work with software at IBM"...
>
> I hope you got my English.
>
> mi'e .ianis

That is BAI, a modal and not a tense cmavo per se, and the issue should
be raised in that section.

There are a couple of other BAI cmavo that do not exactly match the
place structure of the listed gismu for their definition; this dates
from when the associated gismu were mnemonic hints for the cmavo but
were not definitional. In the past, when this problem was identified,
the correction has been to make a lujvo with the place structure that we
wish the BAI to represent, and change the reference.

lojbab

Posted by arj on Fri 17 of Nov, 2006 13:58 GMT posts: 953

On Thu, 16 Nov 2006, Robert LeChevalier wrote:

> arj wrote:
>> Re: Re: BPFK Section: Tense sumtcita as of 16 Jun 2005
>>
>>> Yanis has identified a potential problem with the definition of "di'o".
>>> Specifically, the x1 of di'o is said to not match the x1 of diklo.
>
> That is BAI, a modal and not a tense cmavo per se, and the issue should be
> raised in that section.

Just for the record:

"Tense sumtcita" is a completely artificial subdivision of the BAI cmavo,
specifically made for the BPFK because BAI is so large.

--
Arnt Richard Johansen http://arj.nvg.org/
Advisory: There is an Extremely Small but Nonzero Chance That, Through
a Process Known as 'Tunneling,' This Product May Spontaneously
Disappear from Its Present Location and Reappear at Any Random Place
in the Universe, Including Your Neighbors Domicile. The Manufacturer
Will Not Be Responsible for Any Damages or Inconvenience That May
Result. --Susan Hewitt and Edward Subitzky

Posted by arj on Fri 17 of Nov, 2006 14:21 GMT posts: 953

On Thu, 16 Nov 2006, Jorge Llambas wrote:

> On 11/16/06, arj <wikidiscuss@lojban.org> wrote:
>>
>> Is this the right place to post this kind of concern? Will we remember
>> it when the time comes to review the whole thing?
>
> Maybe a new page with errata/points-to-discuss? I never seem to
> be able to find anything posted on Wiki-discuss threads.

Good idea. I've created Issues with checkpointed BPFK sections for
this.

I think the problem can be solved simply by replacing the examples with
artificial ones.

--
Arnt Richard Johansen http://arj.nvg.org/
Advisory: There is an Extremely Small but Nonzero Chance That, Through
a Process Known as 'Tunneling,' This Product May Spontaneously
Disappear from Its Present Location and Reappear at Any Random Place
in the Universe, Including Your Neighbors Domicile. The Manufacturer
Will Not Be Responsible for Any Damages or Inconvenience That May
Result. --Susan Hewitt and Edward Subitzky