Chinese, English and Spanish etymology of Lojban (was: gismu etymology) Posted by mublin on Mon 16 of Jun, 2008 06:01 GMT posts: 20 Use this thread to discuss the Chinese, English and Spanish etymology of Lojban (was: gismu etymology) page.
Posted by mublin on Mon 16 of Jun, 2008 06:01 GMT posts: 20 On Tue, Mar 25, 2008 at 10:50:16PM -0400, komfo,amonan wrote: > On Tue, Mar 25, 2008 at 2:45 PM, mublin <mublin@dealloc.org> wrote: > > > I made an attempt at reconstructing all Chinese source words used in > > generating the Lojban gismu. > > io ki'e do'u tcexau i e'u do jmina fi la uikis > i mu'o mi'e komfn .i ui ki'e .i le selgu'a na mulno .iseki'ubo mi nelcu'a loza'i denpa fo lozu'o jmina fi la uikis Thank you. I'm still working on the Lojban etymology, so I'd like to wait a bit before adding anything to the wiki. In the meantime, the reconstructed Chinese, English, and Spanish source words are available at the following address: https://www.dealloc.org/~mublin/ Of course, if anybody would like to help out let me know. PS. There will be a browser popup asking you to accept the SSL certificate of www.dealloc.org. If this worries you, you can verify the fingerprint of the certificate: SHA1 Fingerprint=17:B5:FB:A0:3A:56:F1:60:0B:D7:B8:67:8C:AA:E9:9D:E3:30:F4:8B MD5 Fingerprint=6D:5E:D0:73:EB:F2:A0:00:63:85:BF:7F:1F:A2:47:1F -- mu'o mi'e mublin. To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list-request@lojban.org with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help.
Posted by arj on Mon 16 of Jun, 2008 06:01 GMT posts: 953 On Tue, Apr 01, 2008 at 04:05:37PM +0200, mublin wrote: > In the meantime, the reconstructed Chinese, English, and Spanish > source words are available at the following address: > > https://www.dealloc.org/~mublin/ Thank you very much for your formidable work! (Why https, by the way?) -- Arnt Richard Johansen http://arj.nvg.org/ <Rad> NEI! IKKE GI MEG LINK! TENK FOR MEG! To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list-request@lojban.org with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help.
Posted by Anonymous on Mon 16 of Jun, 2008 06:01 GMT Quoting mublin <mublin@dealloc.org>: > In the meantime, the reconstructed Chinese, English, and Spanish > source words are available at the following address: > > https://www.dealloc.org/~mublin/ > > -- > mu'o mi'e mublin. > Looking at the part of the page about the other orthography for Alice in Wonderland reminded me of a question I have about diphthongs. How did the terms "rising" and "falling" come about? All the falling diphthongs *end* with high vowels, and all the rising diphthongs listed *begin* with a high vowel. This seems backwards to me, which probably means there is some other very good reasoning which I am not seeing at the moment. I am very curious to know what it is, though. mu'omi'e skaryzgik. To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list-request@lojban.org with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help.
Posted by Anonymous on Mon 16 of Jun, 2008 06:01 GMT Rising and falling are about where the glide/semivowel/lesser vowel is relative to the root vowel (after = falling, before = rising); the matter of the position of the various parts is dealt with using close (higher) and open (lower). --- Original Message -- From: "mls1@rice.edu" <mls1@rice.edu> To: lojban-list@lojban.org Sent: Tuesday, April 1, 2008 10:31:04 AM Subject: lojban Re: Chinese, English and Spanish etymology of Lojban (was: Re: gismu etymology) Quoting mublin <mublin@dealloc.org>: > In the meantime, the reconstructed Chinese, English, and Spanish > source words are available at the following address: > > https://www.dealloc.org/~mublin/ > > -- > mu'o mi'e mublin. > Looking at the part of the page about the other orthography for Alice in Wonderland reminded me of a question I have about diphthongs. How did the terms "rising" and "falling" come about? All the falling diphthongs *end* with high vowels, and all the rising diphthongs listed *begin* with a high vowel. This seems backwards to me, which probably means there is some other very good reasoning which I am not seeing at the moment. I am very curious to know what it is, though. mu'omi'e skaryzgik. To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list-request@lojban.org with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help. You rock. That's why Blockbuster's offering you one month of Blockbuster Total Access, No Cost. http://tc.deals.yahoo.com/tc/blockbuster/text5.com To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list-request@lojban.org with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help.
Posted by mublin on Mon 16 of Jun, 2008 06:01 GMT posts: 20 On Tue, Apr 01, 2008 at 04:46:20PM +0200, Arnt Richard Johansen wrote: > (Why https, by the way?) A mixture of sysadmin laziness and a vague feeling that the Internet would suck less if all our communications were encrypted by default. Hope it's not too inconvenient. -- mu'o mi'e mublin. To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list-request@lojban.org with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help.
Posted by mublin on Mon 16 of Jun, 2008 06:01 GMT posts: 20 Repost in ASCII coi skaryzgik. On Tue, Apr 01, 2008 at 10:31:04AM -0500, mls1@rice.edu wrote: > Looking at the part of the page about the other orthography for > Alice in Wonderland reminded me of a question I have about > diphthongs. How did the terms "rising" and "falling" come about? Here's the phrase in question: > A diaeresis is applied to the second vowel of a two-syllable vowel > pair if the pair would otherwise constitute a falling diphthong > (``ai, ei, oi, au''), and to the first vowel if the pair would > otherwise constitute a rising diphtong (``ia, ie, ii, io, iu, iy, > ua, ue, ui, uo, uu, uy''); the diaeresis is not used in any other > case. I thought the terminology was from ``What Is Lojban?'' 1. Actually it isn't; ``ai, ei, oi, au'' are described as _rising_ diphthongs there. However, my use of the terms seems to be in accordance with the definition given on Wikipedia 2: > Falling (or descending) diphthongs start with a vowel of higher > prominence (higher pitch or louder) and end in a vowel with less > prominence, like /aI_/ in "eye", while rising (or ascending) > diphthongs begin with a less prominent vowel and end with a more > prominent vowel, like /I_a/ in "yard". You also wrote: > All the falling diphthongs *end* with high vowels, and all the > rising diphthongs listed *begin* with a high vowel. This seems > backwards to me snip Now I am confused. I thought ``ai, ei, oi, au'' (falling diphthongs in my terms) start with a vowel of higher prominence and end on a semivowel; whereas in the ``ia and ``ua series it is the other way round. 1 http://lojban.org/publications/level0/brochure/phonol.html 2 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diphthong -- mu'o mi'e mublin. To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list-request@lojban.org with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help.
Posted by Anonymous on Mon 16 of Jun, 2008 06:01 GMT Quoting mublin <mublin@dealloc.org>: > Repost in ASCII > snip > However, my use of the terms seems to be in accordance with the > definition given on Wikipedia 2: > > > Falling (or descending) diphthongs start with a vowel of higher > > prominence (higher pitch or louder) and end in a vowel with less > > prominence, like /aI_/ in "eye", while rising (or ascending) > > diphthongs begin with a less prominent vowel and end with a more > > prominent vowel, like /I_a/ in "yard". > > You also wrote: > > > All the falling diphthongs *end* with high vowels, and all the > > rising diphthongs listed *begin* with a high vowel. This seems > > backwards to me snip > > Now I am confused. I thought ``ai, ei, oi, au'' (falling diphthongs in > my terms) start with a vowel of higher prominence and end on a > semivowel; whereas in the ``ia and ``ua series it is the other way > round. > > 1 http://lojban.org/publications/level0/brochure/phonol.html > 2 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diphthong > > -- > mu'o mi'e mublin. > What I was referring to as "high" and "low" vowels is not the same as the difference between a vowel and a semivowel (or glide). What I was referring to refers instead to the position of the tongue in the mouth when pronouncing the vowel. The vowels i and u are thus, in this system "high" vowels (which others here are calling "close" vowels because the mouth is more closed) and a is a "low" vowel (often also called an "open" vowel). From what I can tell, though, the classification of diphthongs described in the wikipedia quote you gave is instead based on sonority. Vowels are more sonorous than glides (semivowels) which are more sonorous than liquids (r and l) which are more sonorous than nasals (m and n) which are more sonorous than fricatives (s z f v) which are more sonorous than stops (p t k b d g). (I did not include all consonants of each category.) So if the "rising" and "falling" in a diphthong is referring to the sonority, you would get the classifications in the wikipedia quote you gave. But if it is referring to the position of the tongue in pronouncing each sound, you would get the reverse. mu'omi'e skaryzgik. To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list-request@lojban.org with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help.
Posted by Anonymous on Mon 16 of Jun, 2008 06:01 GMT On Tue, Apr 1, 2008 at 11:05 AM, mublin <mublin@dealloc.org> wrote: > > In the meantime, the reconstructed Chinese, English, and Spanish > source words are available at the following address: > > https://www.dealloc.org/~mublin/ > > Of course, if anybody would like to help out let me know. Very useful, thank you. Some comments on some of the Spanish ones you marked with "FIXIT": canti gut entran entraña FIXIT dubious "core" entrañas: entrails; insides; bowels cliva leave va va "formal second-person singular (usted) present indicative form of ir; third-person singular (él, ella, also used with usted) present indicative" FIXIT dubious I agree it's a dubious choice for "leave", but that's what it seems to be. I guess when they removed all the "endings" from "irse" they were left with nothing. dasri ribbon xiron jirón "rag; shred" FIXIT dubious Sounds right to me. dekpu gallon kantar cantar "to sing" FIXIT dubious; possibly a derivation of the Arab form of "quintal", Probably "cántara": 16.13 liters. I knew "cántaro" (pitcher, jug), but not the old unit "'cántara". drudi roof texod tejado FIXIT correct transcription "tex" Souldn't that be "texad"? ganti testicle test test- FIXIT dubious "testa" is "head", but it doesn't make sense to have it as a option for "testÃculo". jbera borrow FIXIT Spanish source word missing in the original gismu etymology file Probably because there is no good word for "borrow", just the phrase "tomar prestado". I guess they could hae used "prestad" though. jmaji gather amas FIXIT missing; confusion with "amass" != "amasar"? Yes, very strange. Possibilities are: "juntarse", "reunirse", "congregarse". junta weight pesantes peso "weight; currency of some countries: peso" FIXIT correct transcription "pes"; confusion with "pesadez" /pesades/ or Italian "pesante" /pezante/? "pesantez" exists, though it's hard to see why it would be preferred to the more usual "peso". (Besides, why wouldn't -ez count as an "ending"?) natfe deny net negar "to deny" FIXIT correct transcription "nex" Actually "neg". rijno silver arxentos argento "silver" FIXIT correct transcription "arxent" I think some of the "Spanish" source words were actually Portuguese. Perhaps this is one of them, although that woldn't be the correct Portuguese prounciation of "argentoso". A Portuguese word with Spanish prounciation? sluni onion por FIXIT missing Very mysterious. spoja explode eksplo explotar "to exploit" FIXIT correct transcription "eksplot" Although "to exploit" is one of its meanings, it does also mean "to explode". tanxe box trank FIXIT missing; confusion with English source word "trunk"?; "tronco" means "tree-trunk" and has wrong transcription Strange. vlipa powerful poder poder "power, reign; authorization; to be able, can" FIXIT correct transcription "pod" Probably "poderoso" (powerful). mu'o mi'e xorxes To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list-request@lojban.org with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help.
