Lojban In General

In alice, there's this use of vorme:

i abu cidni sanli gi'e catlu le se vorme noi traji le ka melbi kei lei
purdi poi su'oroi se viska

Now, I'm wondering here whether {te vorme} wouldn't be better. I know
the official gismu definition doesn't specify that x2 is *this* side,
and x3 *that* side, but it seems like that's the way it should be, and
that the sentence would be clearer with {te vorme}. Is that the way
the x2 and x3 are usually used?

Chris Capel
--
"What is it like to be a bat? What is it like to bat a bee? What is it
like to be a bee being batted? What is it like to be a batted bee?"
-- The Mind's I (Hofstadter, Dennet)

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On Sun, Jun 29, 2008 at 2:47 AM, Chris Capel <pdf23ds@gmail.com> wrote:

> In alice, there's this use of vorme:
>
> i abu cidni sanli gi'e catlu le se vorme noi traji le ka melbi kei lei
> purdi poi su'oroi se viska
>
> Now, I'm wondering here whether {te vorme} wouldn't be better. I know
> the official gismu definition doesn't specify that x2 is *this* side,
> and x3 *that* side, but it seems like that's the way it should be, and
> that the sentence would be clearer with {te vorme}. Is that the way
> the x2 and x3 are usually used?

The usual order in gismu with "to" and "from" places is "to x2, from x3",
so I would take {le se vorme} as the place the door leads to, if order
is to be significant. To specify "this" or "that" we can add "vi" or "vu"
(not "va" in this case since there is nobody there being spoken to).

mu'o mi'e xorxes

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On Sun, Jun 29, 2008 at 9:10 AM, Jorge Llambías <jjllambias@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Sun, Jun 29, 2008 at 2:47 AM, Chris Capel <pdf23ds@gmail.com> wrote:

>> In alice, there's this use of vorme:
>>
>> i abu cidni sanli gi'e catlu le se vorme noi traji le ka melbi kei lei
>> purdi poi su'oroi se viska
>>
>> Now, I'm wondering here whether {te vorme} wouldn't be better. I know
>> the official gismu definition doesn't specify that x2 is *this* side,
>> and x3 *that* side, but it seems like that's the way it should be, and
>> that the sentence would be clearer with {te vorme}. Is that the way
>> the x2 and x3 are usually used?
>
> The usual order in gismu with "to" and "from" places is "to x2, from x3",
> so I would take {le se vorme} as the place the door leads to, if order
> is to be significant.

Would you regard it as a bug in the definition of {vorme} that it
makes no mention of any such distinction between the x2 and x3?

Chris Capel
--
"What is it like to be a bat? What is it like to bat a bee? What is it
like to be a bee being batted? What is it like to be a batted bee?"
-- The Mind's I (Hofstadter, Dennet)

To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list-request@lojban.org
with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if
you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help.

On Sun, Jun 29, 2008 at 12:25 PM, Chris Capel <pdf23ds@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Sun, Jun 29, 2008 at 9:10 AM, Jorge Llambías <jjllambias@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> The usual order in gismu with "to" and "from" places is "to x2, from x3",
>> so I would take {le se vorme} as the place the door leads to, if order
>> is to be significant.
>
> Would you regard it as a bug in the definition of {vorme} that it
> makes no mention of any such distinction between the x2 and x3?

The problem is that doors are not necessarily only or mainly
one directional, but perhaps it would be better to specify that when
direction is relevant x2 is the "to" and x3 the "from".

That would still not solve your problem though, because {lo se vorme},
even if directional, could be "the place that the door leads to (from here)"
or "this place where I am and the door leads to".

mu'o mi'e xorxes

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with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if
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On Sun, Jun 29, 2008 at 10:59 AM, Jorge Llambías <jjllambias@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Sun, Jun 29, 2008 at 12:25 PM, Chris Capel <pdf23ds@gmail.com> wrote:

>> Would you regard it as a bug in the definition of {vorme} that it
>> makes no mention of any such distinction between the x2 and x3?
>
> The problem is that doors are not necessarily only or mainly
> one directional, but perhaps it would be better to specify that when
> direction is relevant x2 is the "to" and x3 the "from".
>
> That would still not solve your problem though, because {lo se vorme},
> even if directional, could be "the place that the door leads to (from here)"
> or "this place where I am and the door leads to".

No, I think in the context of the passage, it's very clear that (the
side it leads to) is (the other side). If that were in the definition,
I would have understood that passage fine. This excerpt should make
this clear:

i la alis kargau le vrogai gi'e facki le du'u vy se jersi lo cmalu
vorme noi na bramau lo ratcu kevna i abu cidni sanli gi'e catlu le se
vorme noi traji le ka melbi kei fo lei purdi poi su'oroi se viska da i
a'osaidai abu barkla le manku kumfa gi'e cadzu co jbini lei va zdani
be loi carmi xrula be'o ku joi lei va lenku jinto

(This contains some other changes I made, FYI.) In any case, a {vu}
could be added if needed, like you said.

Chris Capel
--
"What is it like to be a bat? What is it like to bat a bee? What is it
like to be a bee being batted? What is it like to be a batted bee?"
-- The Mind's I (Hofstadter, Dennet)

To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list-request@lojban.org
with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if
you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help.