Lojban In General

Lojban In General


CFG prize challenge question

posts: 143

I'm currently trying to prove that a CFG can't parse grammars with
elidable terminators without a blowup in productions. I'd like to
verify that the formalism I'm using is satisfactory to the judges.

The set of valid phrases to be parsed, P, is a set of lists of tokens.
There are two types of tokens: start and terminator. Each token is
paired with a number identifying the type of phrase it starts or
terminates. The terminator is also paired with a boolean value
indicating whether it is elided. (This, rather than simply leaving out
the terminator token for elided ones, makes constructing the set much
easier.) Tokens are written as tuples in angle brackets.

MapPhPh is a function that maps a phrase identifier (natural number)
to a set of phrase identifiers. The returned identifiers are exactly
those allowed to be nested under the passed in phrase in the grammar.

The contents of P is defined as follows.

For some natural x and bool y, <Start x>, <Trm x y> is in P. (y is
whether the terminator is elided.)

Adjacent phrases: If p is in P,
- and at some position pos in p two successive tokens are terminators
of the form <Trm aID el1>, <Trm oID el2> (read "adjacent ID", "outer
ID"),
- and some number newID is a member of mapPhPh(oID),
- and and for the list p_1 consisting of the first pos members of p,
the boolean function canAppend(p_1, newID) is true (canAppend is
defined below),
- then for some bool elided, the list formed by inserting <Start
newID>, <Terminator newID elided> into p at (pos + 1) is in P.

Nested phrases: If p is in P,
- and for some number pos > 0, every token at or after position pos
in p is a terminator,
- and the two successive tokens at (pos - 1) in p are of the form
<Start oldID>, <Trm oldID oldEl>,
- and for some number newID, newID is a member of mapPhPh(oldID)
- then p with <Start newID>, <Trm newID, newEl> inserted at pos is a
member of P.

Not done yet!

canAppend(p, pID):
Let lastEl be the last element of the list p.
If lastEl is a start token, canAppend is true.
Let p_1 be p without its last element.
If lastEl is a terminator of the form <Trm tid el>, canAppend is true iff:
- pID is a member of mapPhPh(tid)
- and either el is false or canAppend(p_1, pID) is true.



That's it. I *think* that represents the salient aspects of phrases
with elidable terminators in Lojban. The reason I don't have a token
for the contents of phrases is that I think they're adequately
represented by a Start and Trm token where the Trm is never elided and
it has no contents itself. phrases that always have non-elided
terminators. By the way, I'm using the Isabelle system to formulate
this (the above is a semi-formal version of the completely formal
version I've written), and I've done a few proofs that show that some
of the desired properties hold (actually just constructing specific
token lists and proving they're in P), so my description ought to be
completely rigorous and consistent, even if it doesn't correctly model
lojban's phrases.

Chris Capel
--
"What is it like to be a bat? What is it like to bat a bee? What is it
like to be a bee being batted? What is it like to be a batted bee?"
-- The Mind's I (Hofstadter, Dennet)


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posts: 143
On Sun, Feb 8, 2009 at 15:36, Chris Capel <pdf23ds@gmail.com> wrote:

> Adjacent phrases: If p is in P,
> - and at some position pos in p two successive tokens are terminators
> of the form <Trm aID el1>, <Trm oID el2> (read "adjacent ID", "outer
> ID"),
> - and some number newID is a member of mapPhPh(oID),
> - and and for the list p_1 consisting of the first pos members of p,

I believe this should be "the first (pos + 1)" members of p.

Chris Capel
--
"What is it like to be a bat? What is it like to bat a bee? What is it
like to be a bee being batted? What is it like to be a batted bee?"
-- The Mind's I (Hofstadter, Dennet)


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with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if
you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help.

posts: 143
On Sun, Feb 8, 2009 at 15:36, Chris Capel <pdf23ds@gmail.com> wrote:

> Not done yet!
>
> canAppend(p, pID):
> Let lastEl be the last element of the list p.
> If lastEl is a start token, canAppend is true.
> Let p_1 be p without its last element.
> If lastEl is a terminator of the form <Trm tid el>, canAppend is true iff:
> - pID is a member of mapPhPh(tid)
> - and either el is false or canAppend(p_1, pID) is true.

This should really be
- either el is false, or
- pID is a member of mapPhPh(tid) and canAppend(p_1, pID) is true.

Chris Capel
--
"What is it like to be a bat? What is it like to bat a bee? What is it
like to be a bee being batted? What is it like to be a batted bee?"
-- The Mind's I (Hofstadter, Dennet)


To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list-request@lojban.org
with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if
you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help.

On Sun, Feb 8, 2009 at 6:36 PM, Chris Capel <pdf23ds@gmail.com> wrote:

> I'm currently trying to prove that a CFG can't parse grammars with
> elidable terminators without a blowup in productions.

By "blowup" you mean the number of rules increases exponentially with
the number of terminators, right? I don't think that can be proven in
general for grammars with elidable terminators, you need the kind of
recursiveness that the Lojban grammar has for the exponential blowup
to happen. Trivial counterexample:

text = A1 /T1/ | A2 /T2/ | ... | An /Tn/

That grammar has n rules, with n terminators. If the terminators are
made elidable, we only have an increase to 2n rules.

> I'd like to
> verify that the formalism I'm using is satisfactory to the judges.

I'm not one of the judges, but I'm interested, so I have some questions.

> The set of valid phrases to be parsed, P, is a set of lists of tokens.

First question: Do I understand correctly that a phrase is something
like "KOhA BRODA LE BRODA KU VAU"?

The number of valid (and finite) such phrases with non-elidable
terminators is countably infinite, and so is the number with elidable
terminators. There is no blowup there. It is the number of rules,
things like "sumti = LE selbri KU", which is finite, that probably
blows up.

Or is a phrase something like "LE selbri KU", where "selbri" is one of
its tokens? Is "GI NAI" a phrase? It is not by itself "valid" as in a
valid text to be parsed, but there is a rule "gik = GI NAI".

> There are two types of tokens: start and terminator. Each token is
> paired with a number identifying the type of phrase it starts or
> terminates.

What are the types of phrases? Can you give some examples of tokens,
some examples of phrases, and some examples of types of phrases?

I think I'm confused enough at this point, so I'll wait for the
answers before proceeding. :-)

mu'o mi'e xorxes


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posts: 143

On Mon, Feb 9, 2009 at 17:31, Jorge Llambías <jjllambias@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Sun, Feb 8, 2009 at 6:36 PM, Chris Capel <pdf23ds@gmail.com> wrote:

>> I'm currently trying to prove that a CFG can't parse grammars with
>> elidable terminators without a blowup in productions.
>
> By "blowup" you mean the number of rules increases exponentially with
> the number of terminators, right?

Well, more like with the number of allowable parent-child phrase
relationships. E.g., you can nest a sumti in a selbri, so that's one.
You can put a selbri in a bridi, so that's two. You can put a TO-TOI
in lots of places, so that's like ten more. Etc. And I don't assert
that the blowup is exponential--I'd sooner believe it's polynomial.
But either way I'm really not to sure how to go about *proving* it.

>> The set of valid phrases to be parsed, P, is a set of lists of tokens.
>
> First question: Do I understand correctly that a phrase is something
> like "KOhA BRODA LE BRODA KU VAU"?

Well, I'm thinking more abstractly. I don't think KOhA has a
terminator, so I'm just assuming that kind of word is irrelevant. And
I'm representing all terminators, so I think you'd need "BRODA LE
BRODA VAU KU VAU". But that's basically it.

> The number of valid (and finite) such phrases with non-elidable
> terminators is countably infinite, and so is the number with elidable
> terminators. There is no blowup there. It is the number of rules,
> things like "sumti = LE selbri KU", which is finite, that probably
> blows up.

That's the idea.

> Or is a phrase something like "LE selbri KU", where "selbri" is one of
> its tokens?

A selbri has internal structure, including some terminators (I
believe) so it would be represented as various phrase types.

> Is "GI NAI" a phrase? It is not by itself "valid" as in a
> valid text to be parsed, but there is a rule "gik = GI NAI".

I don't think NAI is really a terminator, so "GI NAI" wouldn't be
represented in my formalism.

>> There are two types of tokens: start and terminator. Each token is
>> paired with a number identifying the type of phrase it starts or
>> terminates.
>
> What are the types of phrases? Can you give some examples of tokens,
> some examples of phrases, and some examples of types of phrases?

The concrete syntax I've been using is as follows: "(x" is a start
token of type x, ")x" is a terminator token, non-elided, and "_)x" is
an elided terminator. So an example phrase would be

(1 (2 (3 (4 )4 _)3 _)2 (3 )3 )1

This phrase is invalid, because of the second 3 phrase. Since the 2
terminator is elided, the second 3 phrase would have to be grouped
under the 2 phrase after the first 3 phrase. In other words, if you
removed the elided terminators and reconstructed them, the 2
terminator would go after the second 3 phrase.

I think you can see how a unique number could be assigned to each
selma'o that starts a terminable phrase, and the allowed nestings
declared as assumptions about the mapPhPh function, to make a mapping
between lojban and the formalism.

Chris Capel
--
"What is it like to be a bat? What is it like to bat a bee? What is it
like to be a bee being batted? What is it like to be a batted bee?"
-- The Mind's I (Hofstadter, Dennet)


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with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if
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On Mon, Feb 9, 2009 at 9:42 PM, Chris Capel <pdf23ds@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Mon, Feb 9, 2009 at 17:31, Jorge Llambías <jjllambias@gmail.com> wrote:
>> By "blowup" you mean the number of rules increases exponentially with
>> the number of terminators, right?
>
> Well, more like with the number of allowable parent-child phrase
> relationships. E.g., you can nest a sumti in a selbri, so that's one.

Do you mean things like "ME sumti MEhU" or "BRIVLA BE sumti BEhO"?

I'm still not clear what a "phrase" is here.

> You can put a selbri in a bridi, so that's two. You can put a TO-TOI
> in lots of places, so that's like ten more. Etc. And I don't assert
> that the blowup is exponential--I'd sooner believe it's polynomial.
> But either way I'm really not to sure how to go about *proving* it.

The number of nestings allowed is already infinite with terminators.
It doesn't increase when terminators can be elided.

>>> The set of valid phrases to be parsed, P, is a set of lists of tokens.
>>
>> First question: Do I understand correctly that a phrase is something
>> like "KOhA BRODA LE BRODA KU VAU"?
>
> Well, I'm thinking more abstractly. I don't think KOhA has a
> terminator, so I'm just assuming that kind of word is irrelevant. And
> I'm representing all terminators, so I think you'd need "BRODA LE
> BRODA VAU KU VAU". But that's basically it.

(Actually, the first VAU doesn't go there, VAU terminates a
bridi-tail, not a selbri. A selbri doesn't have a terminator.)

>> The number of valid (and finite) such phrases with non-elidable
>> terminators is countably infinite, and so is the number with elidable
>> terminators. There is no blowup there. It is the number of rules,
>> things like "sumti = LE selbri KU", which is finite, that probably
>> blows up.
>
> That's the idea.

But do "LE ME KOhA MEhU KU" and "LE NU BRODA KEI KU" count as the same
phrase or different phrases? They are both "sumti = LE selbri KU". I'm
still not sure what you are counting as a "phrase".

>> Or is a phrase something like "LE selbri KU", where "selbri" is one of
>> its tokens?
>
> A selbri has internal structure, including some terminators (I
> believe) so it would be represented as various phrase types.

"various" or "infinite"? A selbri can have an infinite number of
terminators nested inside. It doesn't have any terminator of its own.

>> Is "GI NAI" a phrase? It is not by itself "valid" as in a
>> valid text to be parsed, but there is a rule "gik = GI NAI".
>
> I don't think NAI is really a terminator, so "GI NAI" wouldn't be
> represented in my formalism.

Right, NAI is not a terminator. So a "phrase" is anything that has a
terminator? Do "PA BOI" and "PA PA BOI" count as different phrases?

>>> There are two types of tokens: start and terminator. Each token is
>>> paired with a number identifying the type of phrase it starts or
>>> terminates.
>>
>> What are the types of phrases? Can you give some examples of tokens,
>> some examples of phrases, and some examples of types of phrases?
>
> The concrete syntax I've been using is as follows: "(x" is a start
> token of type x, ")x" is a terminator token, non-elided, and "_)x" is
> an elided terminator. So an example phrase would be
>
> (1 (2 (3 (4 )4 _)3 _)2 (3 )3 )1
>
> This phrase is invalid, because of the second 3 phrase. Since the 2
> terminator is elided, the second 3 phrase would have to be grouped
> under the 2 phrase after the first 3 phrase. In other words, if you
> removed the elided terminators and reconstructed them, the 2
> terminator would go after the second 3 phrase.

How can you tell that the second 3 phrase can be grouped under the 2
phrase? How can you tell it can't be grouped under the first 3 phrase?

> I think you can see how a unique number could be assigned to each
> selma'o that starts a terminable phrase, and the allowed nestings
> declared as assumptions about the mapPhPh function, to make a mapping
> between lojban and the formalism.

Not all terminators are coupled with fixed "starter" selmaho, and some
terminators can terminate different structures. This may or may not be
relevant, I'm still not sure I see how this formalism works.

mu'o mi'e xorxes


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posts: 143

On Tue, Feb 10, 2009 at 06:11, Jorge Llambías <jjllambias@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Mon, Feb 9, 2009 at 9:42 PM, Chris Capel <pdf23ds@gmail.com> wrote:

>> On Mon, Feb 9, 2009 at 17:31, Jorge Llambías <jjllambias@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> By "blowup" you mean the number of rules increases exponentially with
>>> the number of terminators, right?
>>
>> Well, more like with the number of allowable parent-child phrase
>> relationships. E.g., you can nest a sumti in a selbri, so that's one.
>
> Do you mean things like "ME sumti MEhU" or "BRIVLA BE sumti BEhO"?
>
> I'm still not clear what a "phrase" is here.

Well, I guess you could say a phrase is a start and end token and
everything between them. So both your examples are phrases.

>> You can put a selbri in a bridi, so that's two. You can put a TO-TOI
>> in lots of places, so that's like ten more. Etc. And I don't assert
>> that the blowup is exponential--I'd sooner believe it's polynomial.
>> But either way I'm really not to sure how to go about *proving* it.
>
> The number of nestings allowed is already infinite with terminators.
> It doesn't increase when terminators can be elided.

Right, but I think the blowup might be a function of the number of

  • unique* nestings allowed, which determines how complex the grammar

has to be. Many (most?) CFGs generate an infinite number of strings,
but some are more complex than others.

> But do "LE ME KOhA MEhU KU" and "LE NU BRODA KEI KU" count as the same
> phrase or different phrases? They are both "sumti = LE selbri KU". I'm
> still not sure what you are counting as a "phrase".

They're different per the definition above, as long as you're
assigning different tokens to ME and NU.

>> A selbri has internal structure, including some terminators (I
>> believe) so it would be represented as various phrase types.
>
> "various" or "infinite"? A selbri can have an infinite number of
> terminators nested inside. It doesn't have any terminator of its own.

An infinite number of different phrases, I guess.

>>> Is "GI NAI" a phrase? It is not by itself "valid" as in a
>>> valid text to be parsed, but there is a rule "gik = GI NAI".
>>
>> I don't think NAI is really a terminator, so "GI NAI" wouldn't be
>> represented in my formalism.
>
> Right, NAI is not a terminator. So a "phrase" is anything that has a
> terminator? Do "PA BOI" and "PA PA BOI" count as different phrases?

Lerfu strings are an interesting case because they don't really have a
start token. They just have a bunch of contents tokens, any one of
which can start a lerfu phrase. But I think they can still be
represented adequately with start and end tokens. So in this case, the
two examples would count as the same phrase. There doesn't have to be
a direct correspondence between valsi and tokens. A start token can
represent the start of a structure however that start is introduced.

>> The concrete syntax I've been using is as follows: "(x" is a start
>> token of type x, ")x" is a terminator token, non-elided, and "_)x" is
>> an elided terminator. So an example phrase would be
>>
>> (1 (2 (3 (4 )4 _)3 _)2 (3 )3 )1
>>
>> This phrase is invalid, because of the second 3 phrase. Since the 2
>> terminator is elided, the second 3 phrase would have to be grouped
>> under the 2 phrase after the first 3 phrase. In other words, if you
>> removed the elided terminators and reconstructed them, the 2
>> terminator would go after the second 3 phrase.
>
> How can you tell that the second 3 phrase can be grouped under the 2
> phrase? How can you tell it can't be grouped under the first 3 phrase?

Sorry. I'm assuming that 1s can be parents of 2s, 2s of 3s, 3-4, 1-3.
For each grammar you have a list of those pairs defining what's
allowed. I might have been too assuming to leave that implicit.

>> I think you can see how a unique number could be assigned to each
>> selma'o that starts a terminable phrase, and the allowed nestings
>> declared as assumptions about the mapPhPh function, to make a mapping
>> between lojban and the formalism.
>
> Not all terminators are coupled with fixed "starter" selmaho, and some
> terminators can terminate different structures. This may or may not be
> relevant, I'm still not sure I see how this formalism works.

I don't think this matters to the fidelity of the formalism. Really,
more than specific start or trm tokens in Lojban, the start and trm
tokens here correspond to grammatical types in lojban. You'd have
multiple types with the same terminator, which in the formal system
don't need the same number.

Chris Capel
--
"What is it like to be a bat? What is it like to bat a bee? What is it
like to be a bee being batted? What is it like to be a batted bee?"
-- The Mind's I (Hofstadter, Dennet)


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you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help.

OK, let me try a different approach, because I really don't understand
how this formalism is supposed to work. Suppose we have this small
grammar with three elidable terminators VAU, KU and KEI:

sentence = [terms CU] selbri terms /VAU/

terms = terms sumti

sumti = KOhA | LE selbri /KU/

selbri = selbri tanru-unit

tanru-unit = BRIVLA | NU sentence /KEI/

How many start and terminator tokens do we need (if there is a small
number, what are they, if there are too many to list, what are some
examples) and what is it that blows up when moving from the
non-elidable to the elidable case?

(Sorry if I'm being too dense.)

mu'o mi'e xorxes


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posts: 143

On Tue, Feb 10, 2009 at 11:23, Jorge Llambías <jjllambias@gmail.com> wrote:
> OK, let me try a different approach, because I really don't understand
> how this formalism is supposed to work. Suppose we have this small
> grammar with three elidable terminators VAU, KU and KEI:
>
> sentence = [terms CU] selbri terms /VAU/
>
> terms = terms sumti
>
> sumti = KOhA | LE selbri /KU/
>
> selbri = selbri tanru-unit
>
> tanru-unit = BRIVLA | NU sentence /KEI/
>
> How many start and terminator tokens do we need (if there is a small
> number, what are they, if there are too many to list, what are some
> examples) and what is it that blows up when moving from the
> non-elidable to the elidable case?

You'd need three pairs of tokens, for sentence/vau, le/ku, and nu/kei.
Actually, maybe five. KOhA and BRIVLA probably need to be represented
explicitly so that elided terminators before them don't eat following
subphrases when they're not supposed to. Their terminators would never
be elided.

So making 1=sentence, 2 = le, 3 = KOhA, 4 = nu, 5 = BRIVLA, the
allowable nestings (parentchild) would be 12, 13, 24, 2--5,
4--1.

The blowup isn't actually represented in this part of the system--I
have other parts representing CFG productions and their correspondence
to phrases. The blowup is in the minimum number of productions in the
CFG necessary to parse a given set of tokens and their nestings.

Chris Capel
--
"What is it like to be a bat? What is it like to bat a bee? What is it
like to be a bee being batted? What is it like to be a batted bee?"
-- The Mind's I (Hofstadter, Dennet)


To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list-request@lojban.org
with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if
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On Wed, Feb 11, 2009 at 1:33 AM, Chris Capel <pdf23ds@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Tue, Feb 10, 2009 at 11:23, Jorge Llambías <jjllambias@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> sentence = [terms CU] selbri terms /VAU/
>>
>> terms = terms sumti
>>
>> sumti = KOhA | LE selbri /KU/
>>
>> selbri = selbri tanru-unit
>>
>> tanru-unit = BRIVLA | NU sentence /KEI/
>
> So making 1=sentence, 2 = le, 3 = KOhA, 4 = nu, 5 = BRIVLA, the
> allowable nestings (parentchild) would be 12, 13, 24, 2--5,
> 4--1.

Also: 1-4 and 1-5?

How can you tell for example that (1 (3 )3 (5 )5 (3 )3 )1 is valid but
(1 (3 )3 (3 )3 )1 is not valid for this grammar? Is the set of valid
phrases just given, in addition to the allowable nestings, at this
point?

How is the role of CU taken into account? It's presence/absence will
play a role in whether a preceding )2 can be elided or not.

mu'o mi'e xorxes


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posts: 143

On Wed, Feb 11, 2009 at 05:50, Jorge Llambías <jjllambias@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Wed, Feb 11, 2009 at 1:33 AM, Chris Capel <pdf23ds@gmail.com> wrote:

>> On Tue, Feb 10, 2009 at 11:23, Jorge Llambías <jjllambias@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> sentence = [terms CU] selbri terms /VAU/
>>>
>>> terms = terms sumti
>>>
>>> sumti = KOhA | LE selbri /KU/
>>>
>>> selbri = selbri tanru-unit
>>>
>>> tanru-unit = BRIVLA | NU sentence /KEI/
>>
>> So making 1=sentence, 2 = le, 3 = KOhA, 4 = nu, 5 = BRIVLA, the
>> allowable nestings (parentchild) would be 12, 13, 24, 2--5,
>> 4--1.
>
> Also: 1-4 and 1-5?

Ah, yes. Missed those.

> How can you tell for example that (1 (3 )3 (5 )5 (3 )3 )1 is valid but
> (1 (3 )3 (3 )3 )1 is not valid for this grammar? Is the set of valid
> phrases just given, in addition to the allowable nestings, at this
> point?

You can't. In this respect, the formalism falls short. I hope this
will not be considered to invalidate it for its intended, limited
purpose.

> How is the role of CU taken into account? It's presence/absence will
> play a role in whether a preceding )2 can be elided or not.

I think CU is more of an elidable "starter" than a terminator. You
could make bridi-tail a phrase type if you liked, to make the allowed
phrases closer to lojban, but you still wouldn't get the effects of
elision modeled properly. Once again, I think the formalism falls
short.

If I'm able to prove anything interesting with my current formalism, I
may try to generalize it some and prove or disprove those same
properties.

Chris Capel
--
"What is it like to be a bat? What is it like to bat a bee? What is it
like to be a bee being batted? What is it like to be a batted bee?"
-- The Mind's I (Hofstadter, Dennet)


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