History: scope of tenses and NA

Source of version: 2

In a recent message on the list ([http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lojban/message/16095|16095]), ((John Cowan)) has made clear the book's official interpretation of NA and tenses as follows: # NA tagging the selbri moves to the left end of the prenex. # Tenses have scope in the order that they occur in the bridi, whether they are free-floating or tag the selbri, and always to the right of any ''na'' which directly tags the selbri. Thus, ''na roroi'' is equivalent to ''roroi na'' and means ''not always'', etc. This goes against the long-established tradition* of those who tend to debate such things, as well as the common-sense notion that ''roroi na'' means ''always not'', or ''never''. The scope of ''NA'' was hard enough to use correctly as it was, now it's even more broken. Therefore I think it is inevitable at this point that the complicated rules given by the book will be ignored, and both tenses and and NA will be given scope in the order in which they occur in the bridi, whether they are free-floating or not, and the sooner the better. -- ((Adam)) ---- The following was originally from ((bi'ai)), but is more appropriate here: It should be noted, that in ((lojban)) (as defined by ((cll))), ''ka'e na'' means the exact same thing as ''na ka'e''. The na is converted to ((naku)) and interpreted before anything else (by moving it to the left of the prenex), according to chapter 16. Additionally, ''ka'enai'' is bad grammar. In ((lojban)), ''na ka'e na broda'' is exactly the same as ''naku naku zo'u ka'e broda'' which is the same as ''ka'e broda''. I imagine ((xorxes)) was already aware of this, but it is misleading to claim the above as fact when it is contrary to the offical language, so I feel obligated to comment. A possible way I can think of to actually say that the negative is possible is ''ka'e na'e broda''. --mi'e ((.djorden.)) * ((xorxes|I)) was not aware of that at the time I wrote it. In fact, the rule that makes ''na ka'e'' and ''ka'e na'' mean the same while ''naku ka'eku'' and ''ka'eku naku'' are clearly different is so crazy that I still can't believe it can be defended. But to clear up any ambiguity ''bi'ai'' should be defined as ''bi'aiku'' = ''naku ka'eku naku''. In the negation chapter, ((cll)) leaves open a little window for sanity: ** You can elide that ku btw: "ka'e naku" is the same as "ka'eku naku". The rule which allows this is term -> (tag | FA #) (sumti | /KU#/). --mi'e ((.djorden.)) 8.5) la djan. (Was Footnote: cu) na ba klama la paris. .e la rom. John (Was Footnote: false) later-will-go-to (Was Footnote: both) Paris and Rome. It is false that John will go to Paris and Rome. 8.7) la djan. (Was Footnote: cu) ba na klama la paris. .e la rom. John later-will (Was Footnote: false) go-to (Was Footnote: both) Paris and Rome. We stated in Section 3 that sentences like Example 8.5 and Example 8.7 appear to be semantically identical, but that subtle semantic distinctions may eventually be found. Unfortunately, no example with clearly conflicting scope is given, but at least the possibility that ''na <tag>'' and ''<tag> na'' are different is not excluded. --((xorxes)) * The possibility of semantic difference is allowed, but it is clearly stated that they both mean "It is false that ...". The semantic differences which I imagine were in mind are things such as which part is focused on; for example the ba being more important than the na (stressing that la djan. pu isn't neccesarily false) could be indicated by putting the ba before the na. --mi'e ((.djorden.)) ** There is no clearly stated "It is false that..." gloss for 8.7! The subtle difference I imagine was in mind was between "It is false that...will..." and "It will be false that...is...". There is no apparent difference between the two, but the text allows that one may eventually be found. If the <tag> used had been something less transparent to scope, the example would have been more informative. --((xorxes)) ---- * See for example message [http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lojban/message/15193|15193], in which ((pc)) and ((xorxes)) seem to agree without too much discussion: ** This example hardly justifies calling it "long-estabilished" tradition (It's from two months ago!). -mi'e ((.djorden.)) *** No, it's is merely an example. I don't believe that the rule that tenses and NA have scope in the order they occur has ever been disputed, before the above message from Cowan, and it's been used numerous times. xorxes: Where would you put the ta'e relative to {da poi nu}/{lo nu}? (Was Footnote: In the sentence ''da poi nu mi citka lo cakla zo'u mi ta'e nelci da'') ;:pc: When prefixing is implicit, tenses have to be the outermost item except for negation, thus the quantifier must be inside them. xorxes: The way I understand it: to make a fully prenexed expression, you start with already explicit prenex terms, then selbri tcita, then non-prenexed terms. ;:pc: Yes, but {na} and tense if they occur ARE already prenex and at the far left end.

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