Lojban In General

The Russian etymology of Lojban is online for review. This is a
reconstruction of the Russian words used in generating the Lojban
gismu, the basis of Lojban vocabulary.

https://www.dealloc.org/~mublin/

Russian source words are given in the Cyrillic alphabet and
transliterated to the Latin alphabet (ISO 9:1995 = GOST 7.79 System
A), and in English translation from N. Korolew's Russian-English
dictionary and the English Wiktionary. (More information about the
Russian etymology is given in an accompanying README.)

Dubious and missing source words are marked with "FIXIT" and a
comment. Any help will be much appreciated.

--
mu'o mi'e mublin.

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On Mon, Apr 07, 2008 at 08:50:20PM +0200, mublin wrote:
> The Russian etymology of Lojban is online for review. This is a
> reconstruction of the Russian words used in generating the Lojban
> gismu, the basis of Lojban vocabulary.

To view the HTML version, follow this link:

https://www.dealloc.org/~mublin/lojban-source-words_ru/

--
mu'o mi'e mublin.

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To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list-request@lojban.org
with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if
you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help.

On 4/7/08, mublin <mublin@dealloc.org> wrote:

> The Russian etymology of Lojban is online for review. This is a
> reconstruction of the Russian words used in generating the Lojban
> gismu, the basis of Lojban vocabulary.

> Dubious and missing source words are marked with "FIXIT" and a
> comment. Any help will be much appreciated.

It seems to be my unavoidable fate: I am the only active jbopre from
Russia in this list. ;-) In fact .evgenis. knows lojban much better
then me, but I suspect he has not enough free time to do this.

I have not yet evaluated your work in details, but from a very first
glance just two notes:

- translation form Korolev dictionary often contains a long list
of idiomatic usage cases, not related to the most direct meaning
of a word.

- translation for "bacru" keyword (it was on the first screen when
I have opened the page, so I have noted this immediately) is not
a translation in fact, but marking the word as perfect form and
reference to imperfect one (like {"said": see "say"} in English
dictionary).

I am going to return to your list a bit later, maybe in a day or two.
This is a very interesting enterprise.

--
Cyril Slobin <slobin@ice.ru> `When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said,
http://wagner.pp.ru/~slobin/ `it means just what I choose it to mean'

To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list-request@lojban.org
with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if
you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help.

On 4/8/08, Cyril Slobin <slobin@ice.ru> wrote:

> - translation for "bacru" keyword (it was on the first screen when
> I have opened the page, so I have noted this immediately) is not
> a translation in fact, but marking the word as perfect form and
> reference to imperfect one (like {"said": see "say"} in English
> dictionary).

Now I see this is a typical case. My suggestion: even if you don't
read Russian, you can improve your script: if translation from the
Korolev dictionary has the form "сов. см. <word>.", then make a second
lookup for this new word and put the result marked as such in your
list. Probably this is worth doing even if the translation starts with
such form followed with some other meanings after semicolon.

--
Cyril Slobin <slobin@ice.ru> `When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said,
http://wagner.pp.ru/~slobin/ `it means just what I choose it to mean'

balji: I don't know the Russian word, but I do recognize the first three
letters as meaning "onion" and being a cognate of "leek".

banro: расти and выращивать are derived from the same root.

barna: The Lojbanization of пятно can't be right, as it shows both vowels
reduced as if neither were stressed.

benji: Is there a verb переносить/перенести?

canti: внутренний means "internal".

phma
N‹§²æìr¸›yúèšØb²X¬¶Ç§vf¢–Ú%¢6ÚžX¬¶·ª¹ë-–ˆÛjz+ƒ­†Ø^²æãyËnžË›±Êâmê+‚‹h†Ûiÿü0ÂZ#m©è®å² ¿¢¸ŸÊ‹«z·š–\¬¶ç$±éÝ™¨¥¶‹r·­j¼¥¢6ÚžŠà~ŠázZ

On 4/8/08, Pierre Abbat <phma@phma.optus.nu> wrote:

phma, your mailer have made a message that appears empty in google mail.
I have looked in the raw text and manually decoded it from base64.

> balji: I don't know the Russian word, but I do recognize the first
> three letters as meaning "onion" and being a cognate of "leek".

Right you are. There are two word confused: "LUkavitsa" is "onion
bulb" and, by extension, other plants bulb (rarely used for anything
but tulips and onions themselves). The same root "luk" is used as a
keyword for {sluni}. The verb "luKAvit", on the other hand, means "to
be insincere and/or deceitful" and is not related to bulbs or onions.

> barna: The Lojbanization of пятно can't be right, as it shows both
> vowels reduced as if neither were stressed.

Correct Lojbanization is piatNO.

> benji: Is there a verb переносить/перенести?

Yes, it is. The noun "перенос"/"perenos" is derived from this verb.

> canti: внутренний means "internal".

Yes. But the noun "внутренности"/"vnutrennosti", derived from this
adjective, means "innards".

--
Cyril Slobin <slobin@ice.ru> `When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said,
http://wagner.pp.ru/~slobin/ `it means just what I choose it to mean'
N‹§²æìr¸›yúèšØb²X¬¶Ç§vf¢–Ú%¢6ÚžX¬¶·ª¹ë-–ˆÛjz+ƒ­†Ø^²æãyËnžË›±Êâmê+‚‹h†Ûiÿü0ÂZ#m©è®å² ¿¢¸ŸÊ‹«z·š–\¬¶ç$±éÝ™¨¥¶‹r·­j¼¥¢6ÚžŠà~ŠázZ

On Mon, Apr 7, 2008 at 8:49 PM, mublin <mublin@dealloc.org> wrote:

> On Mon, Apr 07, 2008 at 08:50:20PM +0200, mublin wrote:
> > The Russian etymology of Lojban is online for review. This is a
> > reconstruction of the Russian words used in generating the Lojban
> > gismu, the basis of Lojban vocabulary.
>
> To view the HTML version, follow this link:
>
> https://www.dealloc.org/~mublin/lojban-source-words_ru/<https://www.dealloc.org/%7Emublin/lojban-source-words_ru/>
>
> --
> mu'o mi'e mublin.
>
> SHA1
> Fingerprint=17:B5:FB:A0:3A:56:F1:60:0B:D7:B8:67:8C:AA:E9:9D:E3:30:F4:8B
> MD5 Fingerprint=6D:5E:D0:73:EB:F2:A0:00:63:85:BF:7F:1F:A2:47:1F
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list-request@lojban.org
> with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if
> you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help.
>
>
A while ago I have compiled a similar list for myself, having no intention
to publish it. I have now attached the files to the Tiki page
http://www.lojban.org/tiki/tiki-index.php?page=lojban.narod.ru
Hopefully, you can use them.

Evgeny Sklyanin (evgenis)

The list of Russian source words 1 has been updated. Many thanks to
everybody who has helped with this effort.

The entire list has been checked against Evgeny's work 2; many
missing words have been added and erroneous reconstructions
corrected. Proposals made on this list have also been incorporated.

The English translations for the Russian source words have been
improved.

A list of known problems is included at the very end of this message,
help with any of these would be much appreciated.

1 https://www.dealloc.org/~mublin/lojban-source-words_ru/
2 http://www.lojban.org/tiki/tiki-index.php?page=lojban.narod.ru

On Tue, Apr 08, 2008 at 03:33:18PM +0100, Evgeny Sklyanin wrote:
> A while ago I have compiled a similar list for myself, having no
> intention to publish it. I have now attached the files to the Tiki
> page http://www.lojban.org/tiki/tiki-index.php?page=lojban.narod.ru
> Hopefully, you can use them.

Thank you so much for making your list available. It was extremely
useful.

Some words in your list were missing entirely in mine, namely:

balji lukavits луковица
binxo dien денется
dimna ucast участь
drudi dric крыша
fenra triecin трещина
gacri kriv покрывать
kramu deklatin десятина
litru raziezj разъезжать
nibli vavlik вовлекать
pinji xui хуй
plibu palavi половые
plita slosk плоский
sazri abrac обращаться
snada uda удача

Words which are marked with "?" in your list, have been marked with
"FIXIT dubious" in my list. On the other hand, I removed "FIXIT"
comments in my list where I found the words corresponded with your
list and were not marked with "?".

By the way, what does ``денется'' mean? Somebody told me depending on
context it might mean ``verschwinden'' (German for ``to vanish; to
disappear'') — but that didn't make much sense to me as a source word
for {binxo}.

There were also over a hundred words differing between our lists. In
most (if not all) cases, the difference was only in grammatical form,
such as noun vs. adjective or reflexive vs. nonreflexive verb. I
usually adopted your version, except for a few cases where my word
seemed phonetically closer to the Lojbanisation (even though it may
have been a poor choice of word from a Russian point of view,
something which I cannot tell, of course).

Finally, your list contains one Russian source word per gismu. It
should be noted that consequently not all my reconstructions could be
checked, because my list also contains alternative source words from
the original gismu etymology.

On Tue, Apr 08, 2008 at 12:33:46AM +0400, Cyril Slobin wrote:
> I have not yet evaluated your work in details, but from a very first
> glance just two notes:
>
> - translation form Korolev dictionary often contains a long list of
> idiomatic usage cases, not related to the most direct meaning of a
> word.
>
> - translation for "bacru" keyword (it was on the first screen when
> I have opened the page, so I have noted this immediately) is not
> a translation in fact, but marking the word as perfect form and
> reference to imperfect one (like {"said": see "say"} in English
> dictionary).

On Tue, Apr 08, 2008 at 12:57:58AM +0400, Cyril Slobin wrote:
> Now I see this is a typical case. My suggestion: even if you don't
> read Russian, you can improve your script: if translation from the
> Korolev dictionary has the form "сов. см. <word>.", then make a second
> lookup for this new word and put the result marked as such in your
> list. Probably this is worth doing even if the translation starts with
> such form followed with some other meanings after semicolon.

Yes, the English translations were quite poor. I hope this has much
improved now. I spent a lot of work on the lookup script, and then
went through all the translations manually. Please let me know if
there remain any mistranslations.

As an aside, the English translations from Korolew were added after
reconstructing the Russian source words, and without any editing to
start with. The actual reconstruction of the Russian source words was
done with other dictionaries, and also by "phonetic search" over a
Russian wordlist using the Lojbanisations in the original gismu
etymology.

On Mon, Apr 07, 2008 at 10:26:37PM -0400, Pierre Abbat wrote:
> balji: I don't know the Russian word, but I do recognize the first three
> letters as meaning "onion" and being a cognate of "leek".

On Tue, Apr 08, 2008 at 09:17:53AM +0400, Cyril Slobin wrote:
> Right you are. There are two word confused: "LUkavitsa" is "onion
> bulb" and, by extension, other plants bulb (rarely used for anything
> but tulips and onions themselves). The same root "luk" is used as a
> keyword for {sluni}. The verb "luKAvit", on the other hand, means "to
> be insincere and/or deceitful" and is not related to bulbs or onions.

Thanks, added луковица, which is also in Evgeny's list.

On Mon, Apr 07, 2008 at 10:26:37PM -0400, Pierre Abbat wrote:
> banro: расти and выращивать are derived from the same root.

There are entries for both of them because the original gismu
etymology names both rasti and viraciv as (Lojbanised) Russian
source words.

> barna: The Lojbanization of пятно can't be right, as it shows both vowels
> reduced as if neither were stressed.

On Tue, Apr 08, 2008 at 09:17:53AM +0400, Cyril Slobin wrote:
> Correct Lojbanization is piatNO.

Added as a comment.

On Mon, Apr 07, 2008 at 10:26:37PM -0400, Pierre Abbat wrote:
> benji: Is there a verb переносить/перенести?

On Tue, Apr 08, 2008 at 09:17:53AM +0400, Cyril Slobin wrote:
> Yes, it is. The noun "перенос"/"perenos" is derived from this verb.

Changed to переносить.

On Mon, Apr 07, 2008 at 10:26:37PM -0400, Pierre Abbat wrote:
> canti: внутренний means "internal".

On Tue, Apr 08, 2008 at 09:17:53AM +0400, Cyril Slobin wrote:
> Yes. But the noun "внутренности"/"vnutrennosti", derived from this
> adjective, means "innards".

Kept внутренности, also in Evgeny's list.

------------------
KNOWN PROBLEMS
------------------

Russian source word missing:

sraji vertical skak
tamne cousin kuzinz
venfu revenge vimie
cikna awake nispat
dukse excess lic
genja root slov

Russian source word missing in original gismu etymology:

sorgu sorghum
tunba sibling
vlagi vulva

Russian source word dubious:

binxo become dien
денется denetsâ ``???''

drudi roof dric
крыша kryša ``roof''

fulta float nistis
нестись nestisʹ ``lay; rush; tear along; tear''

gunka work trudis
трудиться truditʹsâ ``work''

katna cut kas
косить kositʹ ``twist; squint; mow; mow down''

kluza loose blusk
блузка bluzka ``blouse''

kramu acre deklatin
десятина desâtina ``tithe; dessiatina (a measure of land = 2,7 acres)''

nibli necessitate vavlik
вовлекать vovlekatʹ ``draw; involve''

patfu father pad
папа papa ``dad''

--
mu'o mi'e mublin.

To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list-request@lojban.org
with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if
you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help.

coi mublin

On Fri, Apr 11, 2008 at 6:02 PM, mublin <mublin@dealloc.org> wrote:

>
> ------------------
> KNOWN PROBLEMS
> ------------------
>
>
> Russian source word missing:
>
> sraji vertical skak

Bizarre. "скакать" means "to jump" but why here?

>
> tamne cousin kuzinz

probably mistyped kuzina=кузина (feminine from кузин) = cousin (the keys
A and Z are next to each other on the QWERTY keyboard)

>
> venfu revenge vimie

Again bizarre. No slightest idea where it might come from.

>
> cikna awake nispat

не спать = not sleep

>
> dukse excess lic

лишний = excessive

>
> genja root slov

<слово> means <word> . My guess is that here <genja> got somehow mixed with
<gismu>="root word"

>
>
>
> Russian source word missing in original gismu etymology:
>
> sorgu sorghum

сорго

>
> tunba sibling

No Russian equivalent. In scientific literature one can find сиблинг

>
> vlagi vulva
>

<vlagi> sounds very close to <*влаг*алище>=vagina

>
>
> Russian source word dubious:
>
> binxo become dien
> денется denetsâ ``???''

денется is a finite form of the verb деться = to dissapear, to go away. Yes,
it looks like a poor choice for <binxo>. It was just an attempt to account
for the final <n> in dien.

On the other hand, if we assume that the original choice was diel, and the
final <l> was somehow corrupted, it makes much more sense: *дел*аться = to
become

>
>
> drudi roof dric
> крыша kryša ``roof''

Again, it seems that the initial <k> was corrupted to become <d>

>
>
> fulta float nistis
> нестись nestisʹ ``lay; rush; tear along; tear''

нестись is the only possible interpretation of nistis

Yandex dictionary http://lingvo.yandex.ru/ (my favourite on-line dictionary)
gives the following translations (for the imperfective form носиться):

rush; rush about *ненаправл.*; scud (along) *направл.*; skim (along, over);
gallop (*скакать*); fly (*летать*); *float, drift (по воде, в воздухе)*

Probably, the authors of the gismu list chose this word trying to avoid

repeating the word плыть already used for <limna>

>
> gunka work trudis
> трудиться truditʹsâ ``work''
>

Yes, that is fine

>
> katna cut kas
> косить kositʹ ``twist; squint; mow; mow down''
>

косить is a derivative of коса=scythe, meaning literally "to work with
scythe". The meanings "twist, squint" are from an homonimouse word "косой" =
"squint, slanted, skew", and should be discarded.

The choice of the source word is a bit strange: the most natural translation
of <katna> would be резать.

>
> kluza loose blusk
> блузка bluzka ``blouse''

yes, the interpretation is quite unambiguous.

>
>
> kramu acre deklatin
> десятина desâtina ``tithe; dessiatina (a measure of land = 2,7
> acres)''
>

again misspelling: <s> became <kl>

>
> nibli necessitate vavlik
> вовлекать vovlekatʹ ``draw; involve''
>

also from влечь (literally "drag, pull" but in mathematics also
"necessitate")

>
> patfu father pad
> папа papa ``dad''
>

agreed

mu'o mi'e .evgenis.

coi evgenis
> > Russian source word missing:
> > venfu revenge vimie
>
> Again bizarre. No slightest idea where it might come from.

.i mi na briti .i pe'i zoi .ry вымещать .ry. mapti .i ta'o ri voksa
smuni zoi jy. vymiescat .jy

.i mu'u mi'e dmitris

coi dmitris.

2008/4/12 Dmitry Shintyakov <shintyakov@gmail.com>:

>
> .i mi na briti .i pe'i zoi .ry вымещать .ry. mapti .i ta'o ri voksa
> smuni zoi jy. vymiescat .jy
>

.ua mi tugni

co'o mi'e .evgenis.