Lojban In General

On Fri, Mar 20, 2009 at 11:27:25PM -0600, Oscar Lazo wrote:
> I am working in the lojban articles in wikipedia
Great!

> I would like to make a table that related the various lojban typesets
> with both the latin typeset and the sounds they have.
Please bear in mind that those (except the latin one, of course) are by
no means official and should be marked as such.
Furthermore, there aren't many common (and complete) orthographies. In
fact, the only one that I am aware of is srilermorna.
Eppcott created some, but nobody seems to have used them and zbalermorna
is not done yet.

> Is there any convention about this? I've came across several different
> arrays which seem to have originated in diferent moments in time.
What do you mean by convention?
You could just do a "latin lerfu" <-> "orthography lerfu" mapping,
although this would fail with syllable-based orthographies like
zbalermorna.

mu'o mi'e florolf

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On Sat, Mar 21, 2009 at 1:27 AM, Oscar Lazo <geometricamente@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I am working in the lojban articles in wikipedia, and I would like to make a
> table that related the various lojban typesets with both the latin typeset
> and the sounds they have. Is there any convention about this? I've came
> across several different arrays which seem to have originated in diferent
> moments in time.
>

The orthographies other than the standard Latin one are not only
unofficial, they're mostly made by people who find creating them to be
an interesting pursuit in its own right and thus aren't actually being
used for anything. I may be mistaken on this, but I believe the
Cyrillic orthography is an exception and has seen a bit of actual use.
The hiragana orthography definitely has, though for artistic reasons
rather than Lojban communication.

That being said, it's a neat project and I think it'd be a kinda cool
addition to Wikipedia.

- mu'o mi'e .kreig.daniyl.

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i have been developing one that could be fun, too. I just need to do some last touches and do a write up for it, then figure out where and how to submit it to the wiki.

---Original Message---
From: Craig Daniel <craigbdaniel@gmail.com>
To: lojban-list@lojban.org
Sent: Sat, 21 Mar 2009 8:47 am
Subject: lojban Re: Lojban ortographies

On Sat, Mar 21, 2009 at 1:27 AM, Oscar Lazo <geometricamente@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I am working in the lojban articles in wikipedia, and I would like to make a
> table that related the various lojban typesets with both the latin typeset
> and the sounds they have. Is there any convention about this? I've came
> across several different arrays which seem to have originated in diferent
> moments in time.
>

The orthographies other than the standard Latin one are not only
unofficial, they're mostly made by people who find creating them to be
an interesting pursuit in its own right and thus aren't actually being
used for anything. I may be mistaken on this, but I believe the
Cyrillic orthography is an exception and has seen a bit of actual use.
The hiragana orthography definitely has, though for artistic reasons
rather than Lojban communication.

That being said, it's a neat project and I think it'd be a kinda cool
addition to Wikipedia.

- mu'o mi'e .kreig.daniyl.

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with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if
you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help.

I didn't know they were unofficial. But anyway does anybody know what the actual equivalents are, at least for cirilic and hiragana?

As for zbalermorna and srilermorna, I don't know them at all. Could you post some links?

de'i li 22 pi'e 03 pi'e 2009 la'o fy. omologos .fy. cusku zoi skamyxatra.
> I didn't know they were unofficial. But anyway does anybody know what the
> actual equivalents are, at least for cirilic and hiragana?
.skamyxatra

The Cyrillic orthography is very briefly described at the end of chapter 3 of
the CLL (the HTML version refers to the Cyrillic letters by name, while the
printed book shows the actual glyphs). Googling "Hiragana Lojban" returns
<http://www.fa-kuan.muc.de/HIRAGANA.RXML> as the first result.

> As for zbalermorna and srilermorna, I don't know them at all. Could you post
> some links?

They are two original orthographies designed by Lakmir for use in Lojban.
srilermorna is described at 1, and zbalermorna is described at 2 with an
apparently newer version on <http://jbotcan.org/ideas/imageboard.html>.

mu'omi'e .kamymecraijun.

1 http://www.lojban.org/tiki/tiki-index.php?page=srilermorna
2 http://www.lojban.org/tiki/tiki-index.php?page=Lakmir.%27s+Vowel-Diacritic+Orthography

--
ko kutygau le do skami jbipru bo vreji

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On Sun, Mar 22, 2009 at 12:30:40AM +0000, omologos wrote:
>
> I didn't know they were unofficial.

I'd go a little farther than that: unofficial and almost totally
unused. I think if you add it all up there may be as much as a
thousand words of Lojban in all alternative orthographies combined.
Maybe. But I suspect it's more like a couple of hundred.

-Robin

--
They say: "The first AIs will be built by the military as weapons."
And I'm thinking: "Does it even occur to you to try for something
other than the default outcome?" — http://shorl.com/tydruhedufogre
http://www.digitalkingdom.org/~rlpowell/ *** http://www.lojban.org/

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Well I've finished by now the table for as much as I could. I included only latin and cirilic letters for now, since the other ortografies are not "letter per sound"-like.

I am not sure whether my mapping of cirilic is correct. In particular i am not sure wether the letter i put for "e" is correct as there seems to be two of them in cirilic, I put the cirilic e as the CLL mentions, though.

It can be viewed in : http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usuario:Homo_logos/laboratorio#Entrada_para_lojban

I will put it into the articles sometime in the future.

In a message dated 3/22/2009 18:52:53 Eastern Daylight Time,
lojban-out@lojban.org writes:

> I am not sure whether my mapping of cirilic is correct. In particular i am
> not sure wether the letter i put for "e" is correct as there seems to be two
> of them in cirilic, I put the cirilic e as the CLL mentions, though.
>

Russian Cyrillic has two letters which can be transliterated as "e", but
other forms of Cyrillic have only one (which looks like the Latin "E/e", or
sometimes two different forms, such as in Ukrainian. The only "e" that is common to
all forms of Cyrillic is the one you did not use, and that looks like "E/e".

Is an "r" missing from "representación"?
Is the written accent missing twice on "carácter"?

stevo

> Russian Cyrillic has two letters which can be transliterated as "e", but
> other forms of Cyrillic have only one (which looks like the Latin "E/e", or
> sometimes two different forms, such as in Ukrainian. The only "e" that is common to
> all forms of Cyrillic is the one you did not use, and that looks like "E/e".

Thank you for your quick response. I'll change that in a moment.

> Is an "r" missing from "representación"?
> Is the written accent missing twice on "carácter"?

No and no. The hard sound of "r" in spanish, although mostly writen "rr" is not writen double when a word stats with that sound, because all words starting with the character "r" use the hard sound. And as for the second question, there are two similar words in spanish: "carácter" and "caracter" the first refers to one's personality and the second to what is called "letteral" in lojban lingo.

Another question for everyone: Is there an IPA sound for ","? I found none, and the chart looks incomplete without it.
> stevo
>
>

In a message dated 3/22/2009 19:49:09 Eastern Daylight Time,
lojban-out@lojban.org writes:

> > Is an "r" missing from "representación"?
> > Is the written accent missing twice on "carácter"?
>
> No and no. The hard sound of "r" in spanish, although mostly writen "rr" is
> not writen double when a word stats with that sound, because all words
> starting with the character "r" use the hard sound. And as for the second question,
> there are two similar words in spanish: "carácter" and "caracter" the first
> refers to one's personality and the second to what is called "letteral" in
> lojban lingo.
>

You misunderstood my first question. You spelled it as "repesentación", with
no "r" after the "p".
Regarding the second question, my dictionary gives only "carácter" for both
meanings, but it's from 1983, and, in any case, you are probably better
informed about it than I am.

stevo

de'i li 22 pi'e 03 pi'e 2009 la'o fy. omologos .fy. cusku zoi skamyxatra.
> Another question for everyone: Is there an IPA sound for ","? I found none,
> and the chart looks incomplete without it.
.skamyxatra

The comma doesn't have a sound. It's used to denote a syllable break, which is
represented in the IPA by a period.

mu'omi'e .kamymecraijun.

--
jicmu traji zifre fa loi remna lonu senpi

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On Sunday 22 March 2009 18:50:23 omologos wrote:
> Re: Lojban ortographies
>
> Author: omologos
>
> Well I've finished by now the table for as much as I could. I included only
> latin and cirilic letters for now, since the other ortografies are not
> "letter per sound"-like.

Some of the phonemes list several allophones, but they all link to one sound
file. I think that each allophone should link to its own sound file.

Pierre

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Two responses:

Pierre: I agree, I'll see if I can make it so.

stevo: You are right in both issues, i've corrected the table.

By the way: Is it realy true that there are several sounds allowed for each letteral? I always use the first one seen in the table, for each letteral.

On Monday 23 March 2009 01:15:56 omologos wrote:
> Re: Re: Lojban ortographies
>
> Author: omologos
>
> By the way: Is it realy true that there are several sounds allowed for each
> letteral? I always use the first one seen in the table, for each letteral.

Yes it is true. There are no official rules for when to use which allophone,
but in practice some are conditioned by the environment, some are used in
specific words despite the phonetic environment, and others are used by
different people. I also use a few allophones not listed in the table, such
as ç for /x/.

I say Å‹ for /n/ before /k/, /g/, and /x/. This is very common among
languages, and probably most Lojbanists do the same. So I say foŋça or
fɔŋça (I'm not sure where exactly ɔ fits in my idiolects). The variation
between h and θ, however, is that some people say one and some say the
other. I always say h except sometimes in {fu'arka} and maybe a few other
words.

The same sort of variation occurs in natlangs. All Spanish speakers that I
know of say Å‹ for /n/ before /k/ and /g/. Some, including me, say /Å‹/, at
least sometimes, in final position. This is typical of Salvadoran speech (my
mother is Salvadoreña) but not Colombian speech, and is of Pipil origin.

Pierre

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On Mon, Mar 23, 2009 at 9:11 AM, Pierre Abbat <phma@phma.optus.nu> wrote:

> The variation between h and θ, however, is that some people say one and
> some say the other. I always say h except sometimes in {fu'arka} and maybe
> a few other words.

I say θ very occasionally, usually in words with rafsi that go xv'v
(like in za'e "xa'erxa'i") which otherwise are tongue-twisters to me.

mu'o mi'e selkik

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On Sunday 29 March 2009 11:21:15 Stela Selckiku wrote:
> I say θ very occasionally, usually in words with rafsi that go xv'v
> (like in za'e "xa'erxa'i") which otherwise are tongue-twisters to me.

tirxyxi'a, ri'erxi'a.

phma

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