Lojban In General

Couldn't this word be freed up to be used for another word?
I mean, if we're making specialised words for things, why don't we have a word specifically for "switch" {vrabatke/vraga batke} or "door" {vrogai} instead of calling them lever-buttons and passageway-covers? We should at least have some level of consistancy with things. If it's called a man-clit and a fem-dick, then there should be one word for the whole package, and not two words for the same thing. In fact, it's been consistantly told to me that words are intentionally not created because they aren't common enough to warrant their own words, or because they can be just as easily described as a lujvo. Even then, I've had a large argument over my preference for the word {vrabatke} because most feel that {batke} covers all manner of actuators, switches, buttons, dials, etc. and there's no need to differentiate between them.

So, tl;dr could you explain your reasoning a bit better?

--- Original Message --
From: Arnt Richard Johansen <arj@nvg.org>

To: Lindar Greenwood <lindarthebard@yahoo.com>

Cc: lojban-list@lojban.org
Sent: Sunday, June 21, 2009 1:29:55 PM
Subject: lojban Re: Regarding the gismu {vlagi}.

On Sat, Jun 20, 2009 at 05:52:40PM -0700, Lindar Greenwood wrote:
>
> So, isn't {vlagi} just taking up space when we could just as easily use {fetplibu} and use {vlagi} for something else?
> The use seems extremely redundant, and I would love to know the opinions of the Lojban community (and officials) on this matter.

It is indeed redundant. But since the purpose of the set of gismu is not to remove redundancy, this is not considered a problem.

See http://www.lojban.org/files/why-lojban/reply.txt for a discussion of this. (Search for 'seem to have been chosen at random').

--
Arnt Richard Johansen http://arj.nvg.org/
Inuktitut iis eesseentiiaallyy Fiinniish aas spooqqeen iin Greenlaand.
--Clint Jackson Baker, via Essentialist Explanations

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On Sun, Jun 21, 2009 at 02:40:13PM -0700, Lindar Greenwood wrote:
>
> Couldn't this word be freed up to be used for another word?

The Lojban community wants the language to be stable, and the LLG is committed to that goal. If a gismu form were to be re-used for another word, it would have to be as an absolute last resort to fill a desperate need. I can't imagine what kind of circumstances that would be, since there is no shortage of unassigned gismu forms that could be used for new meanings.

> So, tl;dr could you explain your reasoning a bit better?

Please do read the link, it explains it much better than I could do.

--
Arnt Richard Johansen http://arj.nvg.org/
Learn languages!
The more languages you know, the more incomprehensible you can get.

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On Sun, Jun 21, 2009 at 5:40 PM, Lindar Greenwood

<lindarthebard@yahoo.com> wrote:

>
> Couldn't this word be freed up to be used for another word?

Yes.  The whole language could be freed up, and you could replace it
with one that makes sense.  Good luck. ;)

> I mean, if we're making specialised words for things, why don't we
> have a word specifically for "switch" {vrabatke/vraga batke} or "door"
> {vrogai} instead of calling them lever-buttons and passageway-covers?

We do have specialized words for switch and door, they're just not
gismu. There's no shame in being a lujvo. They're just words-- it
takes practice remember to even be able to tell that "vrogai" is in a
different category because of the diphthong at the end. One could
just as easily imagine a Lojban where things were reversed, and we had
a word for "switch" which was made into "button" by saying
"flat+switch" and a word for "door" that was made into "doorway" by
saying "door+hole". I don't see any particular reason to prefer that
Lojban over ours.

> Even then, I've had a large argument over my preference for the word
> {vrabatke} because most feel that {batke} covers all manner of actuators,
> switches, buttons, dials, etc. and there's no need to differentiate between
> them.

I think that "vrabatke" is a beautiful word, and I intend to use it
myself. It's true though that "batke" does include switches and so
forth-- the general rule with gismu is that their meanings are very
broad. So in my opinion a switch can be called a "batke", or it can
be called a "vrabatke" if you want to be more specific.

mu'o mi'e la selckiku

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I think I diverged a bit too much from my original point.

I should really make my question as clear and concise as possible.

My primary question is this:

Why do we have {vlagi}, when it can be easily expressed as {fetplibu}?
If we're going to have separate words, then why is there not a male-equivalent?
It seems somewhat biased, in my opinion.

Blah blah blah equality blah blah blah gender-bias in language blah blah blah...

By the way, I'm glad somebody else likes the word {vrabatke}!!

So, I'm still confused on the opinions of various jbopre.
Should it be freed up, or do we just not care?

--- Original Message --
From: Stela Selckiku <selckiku@gmail.com>
To: lojban-list@lojban.org
Sent: Sunday, June 21, 2009 7:06:48 PM
Subject: lojban Re: Regarding the gismu {vlagi}.

On Sun, Jun 21, 2009 at 5:40 PM, Lindar Greenwood

<lindarthebard@yahoo.com> wrote:

>
> Couldn't this word be freed up to be used for another word?

Yes. The whole language could be freed up, and you could replace it
with one that makes sense. Good luck. ;)

> I mean, if we're making specialised words for things, why don't we
> have a word specifically for "switch" {vrabatke/vraga batke} or "door"
> {vrogai} instead of calling them lever-buttons and passageway-covers?

We do have specialized words for switch and door, they're just not
gismu. There's no shame in being a lujvo. They're just words-- it
takes practice remember to even be able to tell that "vrogai" is in a
different category because of the diphthong at the end. One could
just as easily imagine a Lojban where things were reversed, and we had
a word for "switch" which was made into "button" by saying
"flat+switch" and a word for "door" that was made into "doorway" by
saying "door+hole". I don't see any particular reason to prefer that
Lojban over ours.

> Even then, I've had a large argument over my preference for the word
> {vrabatke} because most feel that {batke} covers all manner of actuators,
> switches, buttons, dials, etc. and there's no need to differentiate between
> them.

I think that "vrabatke" is a beautiful word, and I intend to use it
myself. It's true though that "batke" does include switches and so
forth-- the general rule with gismu is that their meanings are very
broad. So in my opinion a switch can be called a "batke", or it can
be called a "vrabatke" if you want to be more specific.

mu'o mi'e la selckiku

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with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if
you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help.

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On Sun, Jun 21, 2009 at 10:27 PM, Lindar Greenwood

<lindarthebard@yahoo.com>wrote:

>
> So, I'm still confused on the opinions of various jbopre.
> Should it be freed up, or do we just not care?

Abandoning the definition of {vlagi} doesn't really free it up to be used
for another word. Gismu are constructed by a particular algorithm. If more
gismu were to be added, the algorithm would be applied & would yield
whatever it would yield.

Moreover, the gismu list is AFAIK closed. There are some experimental gismu
lying around ({kibro} and {talno} jump to mind), but AFAIK there's no
mechanism for incorporating new canonical gismu (with the exception of the
proposed {kanpe}).

mu'o mi'e komfo,amonan

--- Original Message --
> From: Stela Selckiku <selckiku@gmail.com>
> To: lojban-list@lojban.org
> Sent: Sunday, June 21, 2009 7:06:48 PM
> Subject: lojban Re: Regarding the gismu {vlagi}.
>
> On Sun, Jun 21, 2009 at 5:40 PM, Lindar Greenwood

> <lindarthebard@yahoo.com> wrote:

> >
> > Couldn't this word be freed up to be used for another word?
>
>
> Yes. The whole language could be freed up, and you could replace it
> with one that makes sense. Good luck. ;)
>
>
> > I mean, if we're making specialised words for things, why don't we
> > have a word specifically for "switch" {vrabatke/vraga batke} or "door"
> > {vrogai} instead of calling them lever-buttons and passageway-covers?
>
>
> We do have specialized words for switch and door, they're just not
> gismu. There's no shame in being a lujvo. They're just words-- it
> takes practice remember to even be able to tell that "vrogai" is in a
> different category because of the diphthong at the end. One could
> just as easily imagine a Lojban where things were reversed, and we had
> a word for "switch" which was made into "button" by saying
> "flat+switch" and a word for "door" that was made into "doorway" by
> saying "door+hole". I don't see any particular reason to prefer that
> Lojban over ours.
>
>
> > Even then, I've had a large argument over my preference for the word
> > {vrabatke} because most feel that {batke} covers all manner of actuators,
> > switches, buttons, dials, etc. and there's no need to differentiate
> between
> > them.
>
>
> I think that "vrabatke" is a beautiful word, and I intend to use it
> myself. It's true though that "batke" does include switches and so
> forth-- the general rule with gismu is that their meanings are very
> broad. So in my opinion a switch can be called a "batke", or it can
> be called a "vrabatke" if you want to be more specific.
>
>
> mu'o mi'e la selckiku
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list-request@lojban.org
> with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if
> you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help.
>
>
>
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list-request@lojban.org
> with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if
> you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help.
>
>

Lindar Greenwood wrote:
> Hello there. I'm sending this to the mailing list (of which I do not believe I am a member, but I think I'll subscribe) and to Lojban general inquiries.
>
> Please follow me for a moment.
>
> {pinji} is either a clitoris or penis, as both are homologous.
> {ganti} is either the testes or ovaries, as both are homologous.

The definition for the latter is not so human-centric. We didn't
include English words for non-human analogues for pinji because I don't
know any. The same caveat applies to the words following - there is
more than simple male-human/female-human homology intended.

The intent was to cover as much of biological and sexual terminology
word-space as possible with as few words as possible, but necessarily
limited to the knowledge of educated English speakers with a selection
of foreign language dictionaries at hand.

> {vibna} is the vagina, for which there isn't a male equivalent.

not in humans. The definition should probably have been written to
explicit include non-human analogues, but again I don't know any words
for same, and it probably depends on how one forms the analogy, exactly
what should be included.

I recall that we debated adding a separate word for cervix as well, but
I think we decided that a tanru could satisfy the need - I'm not all
that sure myself of the biological distinction.

> {plibu} is the external genitalia (which is 'vulva' in English for the female parts, and for which there is no male-equivalent).

The vulva is only part of the female external genitalia. Pudenda is the
closer English language term for the human external genitalia, and can
be used for both genders, but usually is used only for the female parts.

> {vlagi} is the female external genitalia.

It is *part* of the human female external genitalia, and possibly with
analogues in other species - again something I pretend no expertise in.

Whether there is a male analogue, I will leave for someone else to
decide. Perhaps the foreskin could be expressed as nakvlagi. So far as
I know, no Lojbanist has coined another word for it.

We considered expressing vlagi as a tanru using ctebi. But we were too
unsure that this wasn't a malglico metaphor.

> To specify male vs. female of these (excepting vibna unless we're making a joke), we append {nak-} for male and {fet-} for female.

That sort of thing was indeed the intent. At the time, the more
versatile the potential metaphorical usage, the better.

> So, isn't {vlagi} just taking up space when we could just as easily use {fetplibu} and use {vlagi} for something else?
> The use seems extremely redundant, and I would love to know the opinions of the Lojban community (and officials) on this matter.

The goal was to make sure that we had sufficient gismu to cover the
commonly referred to words for body parts, for which of course only the
sexual organs are differentiated between males and females, though
other body parts have species analogues. I deferred considerably to my
wife for perspective on which body parts rated gismu, and in this arena
erred on the side of too many rather than too few, because sex-talk is
rather too taboo in English (and probably in other languages) for
someone not explicitly studying the subject linguistically to give an
unbiased opinion.

lojbab

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On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 4:40 AM, Robert LeChevalier<lojbab@lojban.org> wrote:
>
>> {vibna} is the vagina, for which there isn't a male equivalent.
>
> not in humans.  The definition should probably have been written to
> explicit include non-human analogues, but again I don't know any words
> for same, and it probably depends on how one forms the analogy, exactly what
> should be included.

I think "vibna" is probably the word to use for the cloaca, a sex
organ found in birds and some other amniotes. It's non-external, and
is both male and female although some of the details of the two
versions are different.

mu'o mi'e .kreig.

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