Lojban In General

Posted by lukebergen on Thu 03 of Dec, 2009 12:56 GMT posts: 493

sometimes when I'm figuring out how to say what I want to say in my head
I'll throw in an unnecessary {cu} because it sounds right due to an english
{is}.

That E-Prime thing looks interesting. But it seems like there would be some
things in english that you simply couldn't say without using a "to be" form
of verb.

How would you say "I'm here", for instance?

On Fri, Sep 11, 2009 at 7:09 AM, tijlan <jbotijlan@gmail.com> wrote:

> What do you think of E-Prime?
>
> Does the practice of Lojban discourage uses of "to be" in English? We
> seem to frequent the form of "lo skina cu pluka" more than the form of
> "lo skina cu me lo pluka", in which "me" may roughly correspond to the
> English copula "be", as in "the movie is good". Could this mean that
> Lojban has some bearings on the discipline of E-Prime?
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E-Prime
>
> mu'o jundi mi'e tijlan
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list-request@lojban.org
> with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if
> you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help.
>
>

"How would you say "I'm here", for instance?"

=>

"I occupy place at this location".

I like the intention of this language very much ... oops!

2009/9/11 Luke Bergen <lukeabergen@gmail.com>

> sometimes when I'm figuring out how to say what I want to say in my head
> I'll throw in an unnecessary {cu} because it sounds right due to an english
> {is}.
>
> That E-Prime thing looks interesting. But it seems like there would be
> some things in english that you simply couldn't say without using a "to be"
> form of verb.
>
> How would you say "I'm here", for instance?
>
>
> On Fri, Sep 11, 2009 at 7:09 AM, tijlan <jbotijlan@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> What do you think of E-Prime?
>>
>> Does the practice of Lojban discourage uses of "to be" in English? We
>> seem to frequent the form of "lo skina cu pluka" more than the form of
>> "lo skina cu me lo pluka", in which "me" may roughly correspond to the
>> English copula "be", as in "the movie is good". Could this mean that
>> Lojban has some bearings on the discipline of E-Prime?
>>
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E-Prime
>>
>> mu'o jundi mi'e tijlan
>>
>>
>> To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to
>> lojban-list-request@lojban.org
>> with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if
>> you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help.
>>
>>
>

--
"No, no, you're not thinking; you're just being logical." — Niels Bohr

"There are two kinds of people, those who finish what they start and so on."
— Robert Byrne

Posted by lukebergen on Thu 03 of Dec, 2009 12:56 GMT posts: 493

does "I like the intention of this language very much" use any "to be" verb
forms? (this really is hard to get used to, I wanted to say "how does your
sentence use 'to be'")

On Fri, Sep 11, 2009 at 8:53 AM, Mikael Hall <mikael.hall@gmail.com> wrote:

> "How would you say "I'm here", for instance?"
>
>
> =>
>
>
> "I occupy place at this location".
>
> I like the intention of this language very much ... oops!
>
>
> 2009/9/11 Luke Bergen <lukeabergen@gmail.com>
>
> sometimes when I'm figuring out how to say what I want to say in my head
>> I'll throw in an unnecessary {cu} because it sounds right due to an english
>> {is}.
>>
>> That E-Prime thing looks interesting. But it seems like there would be
>> some things in english that you simply couldn't say without using a "to be"
>> form of verb.
>>
>> How would you say "I'm here", for instance?
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Sep 11, 2009 at 7:09 AM, tijlan <jbotijlan@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> What do you think of E-Prime?
>>>
>>> Does the practice of Lojban discourage uses of "to be" in English? We
>>> seem to frequent the form of "lo skina cu pluka" more than the form of
>>> "lo skina cu me lo pluka", in which "me" may roughly correspond to the
>>> English copula "be", as in "the movie is good". Could this mean that
>>> Lojban has some bearings on the discipline of E-Prime?
>>>
>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E-Prime
>>>
>>> mu'o jundi mi'e tijlan
>>>
>>>
>>> To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to
>>> lojban-list-request@lojban.org
>>> with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or
>>> if
>>> you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help.
>>>
>>>
>>
>
>
> --
> "No, no, you're not thinking; you're just being logical." — Niels Bohr
>
> "There are two kinds of people, those who finish what they start and so
> on."
> — Robert Byrne
>
>

No I was merely thinking that a language cannot have intentions...

I find e-prime interesting though, because lojban attempts to state
"facts" primarily, while e-prime want you to focus on "beliefs" - like the
"frequentist" vs "bayesian" view of statistics ... oops!

I can be very sloppy when I have'nt sleept enough.
Sorry.

2009/9/11 Luke Bergen <lukeabergen@gmail.com>

> does "I like the intention of this language very much" use any "to be" verb
> forms? (this really is hard to get used to, I wanted to say "how does your
> sentence use 'to be'")
>
>
> On Fri, Sep 11, 2009 at 8:53 AM, Mikael Hall <mikael.hall@gmail.com>wrote:
>
>> "How would you say "I'm here", for instance?"
>>
>>
>> =>
>>
>>
>> "I occupy place at this location".
>>
>> I like the intention of this language very much ... oops!
>>
>>
>> 2009/9/11 Luke Bergen <lukeabergen@gmail.com>
>>
>> sometimes when I'm figuring out how to say what I want to say in my head
>>> I'll throw in an unnecessary {cu} because it sounds right due to an english
>>> {is}.
>>>
>>> That E-Prime thing looks interesting. But it seems like there would be
>>> some things in english that you simply couldn't say without using a "to be"
>>> form of verb.
>>>
>>> How would you say "I'm here", for instance?
>>>
>>>
>>> On Fri, Sep 11, 2009 at 7:09 AM, tijlan <jbotijlan@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> What do you think of E-Prime?
>>>>
>>>> Does the practice of Lojban discourage uses of "to be" in English? We
>>>> seem to frequent the form of "lo skina cu pluka" more than the form of
>>>> "lo skina cu me lo pluka", in which "me" may roughly correspond to the
>>>> English copula "be", as in "the movie is good". Could this mean that
>>>> Lojban has some bearings on the discipline of E-Prime?
>>>>
>>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E-Prime
>>>>
>>>> mu'o jundi mi'e tijlan
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to
>>>> lojban-list-request@lojban.org
>>>> with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or
>>>> if
>>>> you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> "No, no, you're not thinking; you're just being logical." — Niels Bohr
>>
>> "There are two kinds of people, those who finish what they start and so
>> on."
>> — Robert Byrne
>>
>>
>

--
"No, no, you're not thinking; you're just being logical." — Niels Bohr

"There are two kinds of people, those who finish what they start and so on."
— Robert Byrne

I've looked at it a few times, but I can never entirely figure out what
they intend.

Nonetheless, it appears to me that the structure of Lojban would not help
further the goals of E-Prime at all. Quoting from the article:

--
In the English language, the verb 'to be' has several distinct functions:

• identity, of the form "noun copula noun" [The cat is an animal]
• predication, of the form "noun copula adjective" [The cat is furry]
• auxiliary, of the form "noun copula verb" [The cat is sleeping];

[The cat is bitten by the dog]

• existence, of the form "copula noun" [There is a cat]
• location, of the form "noun copula place" [The cat is on

the mat]

Bourland sees specifically the "identity" and "predication" functions as
pernicious, but advocates eliminating all forms for the sake of simplicity.
--

Lojban uses predication extensively, almost exclusively. It seems like
E-Prime wants to put a distancing verb in place of a form of "to be", so that
"The cat is red" becomes something like "The cat appears red [to me, under
this light." The natural Lojban form ({le mlatu cu xurne}), while omitting an
explicit copula, seems equivalent to the deprecated English version.

On Fri, 11 Sep 2009, tijlan wrote:

> What do you think of E-Prime?
>
> Does the practice of Lojban discourage uses of "to be" in English? We
> seem to frequent the form of "lo skina cu pluka" more than the form of
> "lo skina cu me lo pluka", in which "me" may roughly correspond to the
> English copula "be", as in "the movie is good". Could this mean that
> Lojban has some bearings on the discipline of E-Prime?
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E-Prime
>
> mu'o jundi mi'e tijlan
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list-request@lojban.org
> with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if
> you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help.
>

--
Adam Lopresto
http://cec.wustl.edu/~adam/

Windows95 (noun): 32 bit extensions and a graphical shell for a 16
bit patch to an 8 bit operating system originally coded for a 4
bit microprocessor, written by a 2 bit company, that can't stand 1
bit of competition.

To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list-request@lojban.org
with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if
you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help.

Posted by stevo on Thu 03 of Dec, 2009 12:56 GMT posts: 381

In a message dated 9/11/2009 08:54:57 Eastern Daylight Time,
mikael.hall@gmail.com writes:

> "How would you say "I'm here", for instance?"
>
>
> =>
>
>
> "I occupy place at this location".
>
> I like the intention of this language very much ... oops!
>

E-Prime should still sound like native English. Anything as clumsy as "I
occupy place (or space) at this location" would be unacceptable.
I suggest "I've come here" or "I've arrived" or even "I plan to spend a
week here before leaving again" (to elaborate a little).

I have doubts whether using only E-Prime is worthwhile, but as a way of
clarifying one's thoughts, I think it's great.

stevo

Posted by stevo on Thu 03 of Dec, 2009 12:56 GMT posts: 381

In a message dated 9/11/2009 09:24:39 Eastern Daylight Time,
mikael.hall@gmail.com writes:

> I find e-prime interesting though, because lojban attempts to state
> "facts" primarily, while e-prime want you to focus on "beliefs" - like the
> "frequentist" vs "bayesian" view of statistics

Really? I've never encountered this accompanying belief system in reading
about E-prime.

stevo

2009/9/11 <MorphemeAddict@wmconnect.com>

> In a message dated 9/11/2009 09:24:39 Eastern Daylight Time,
> mikael.hall@gmail.com writes:
>
>
> I find e-prime interesting though, because lojban attempts to state
> "facts" primarily, while e-prime want you to focus on "beliefs" - like the
> "frequentist" vs "bayesian" view of statistics
>
>
>
> Really? I've never encountered this accompanying belief system in reading
> about E-prime.
>
> stevo

The following is taken at the site "http://nobeliefs.com/eprime.htm" :

"

Consider the following paired sets of propositions, in which Standard
English alternates with English-Prime (E-Prime):
lA. The electron is a wave. lB. The electron appears as a wave when measured
with instrument-l.
2A. The electron is a particle. 2B. The electron appears as a particle when
measured with instrument-2.
3A. John is lethargic and unhappy. 3B. John appears lethargic and unhappy in
the office.
4A. John is bright and cheerful. 4B. John appears bright and cheerful on
holiday at the beach.
5A. This is the knife the first man used to stab the second man. 5B. The
first man appeared to stab the second man with what looked like a knife to
me.
6A. The car involved in the hit-and-run accident was a blue Ford. 6B. In
memory, I think I recall the car involved in the hit-and-run accident as a
blue Ford.
7A. This is a fascist idea. 7B. This seems like a fascist idea to me.
8A. Beethoven is better than Mozart. 8B. In my present mixed state of
musical education and ignorance, Beethoven seems better to me than Mozart.
9A. That is a sexist movie. 9B. That seems like a sexist movie to me.
10A. The fetus is a person. 10B. In my system of metaphysics, I classify the
fetus as a person. The "A"-type statements (Standard English) all implicitly
or explicitly assume the medieval view called "Aristotelian essentialism" or
"naive realism."

"

Mikael Hall
--
"No, no, you're not thinking; you're just being logical." — Niels Bohr

"There are two kinds of people, those who finish what they start and so on."
— Robert Byrne

Posted by arj on Thu 03 of Dec, 2009 12:56 GMT posts: 953

On Fri, Sep 11, 2009 at 01:09:22PM +0200, tijlan wrote:
> What do you think of E-Prime?

E-Prime is a variant of English that forbids constructions where the copula verb "to be" is obligatory. Supposedly, this changes communication and possibly also thought by making subjective judgements more overt.

The problem is that the copula in English is a purely superficial part of the grammar, which is almost completely separate from the semantic layer. So merely reformulating sentences without copulas has no bearing on "judgementalness", "Aristotelian essentialism" &c. It is easy to show that this is the case by "translating" the following sentences from http://nobeliefs.com/eprime.htm in a way that conforms to the rules of E-Prime, yet undermines its purpose.

1A. The electron is a wave.
We consider the electron a wave.
2A. The electron is a particle.
We consider the electron a particle.
3A. John is lethargic and unhappy.
John lacks energy and has a bad mood.
4A. John is bright and cheerful.
John bursts with energy and cheerfulness.
5A. This is the knife the first man used to stab the second man.
The first man stabbed the second man with this knife.
6A. The car involved in the hit-and-run accident was a blue Ford.
The driver of a blue Ford hit a person and then drove off.
7A. This is a fascist idea.
This idea bears all the hallmarks of fascism.
8A. Beethoven is better than Mozart.
Beethoven's work exceeds that of Mozart in quality.
9A. That is a sexist movie.
This movie reeks of sexism.
10A. The fetus is a person.
A fetus becomes a person the moment the sperm enters the egg.

--
Arnt Richard Johansen http://arj.nvg.org/
- Hvorfor snakker man engelsk på Internet?
- Har du hørt om minste felles nevner?

To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list-request@lojban.org
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Posted by stevo on Thu 03 of Dec, 2009 12:56 GMT posts: 381

In a message dated 9/11/2009 12:28:43 Eastern Daylight Time,
mikael.hall@gmail.com writes:

> The "A"-type statements (Standard English) all implicitly or explicitly
> assume the medieval view called "Aristotelian essentialism" or "naive
> realism."
>
>
The very next statement is more telling.
> The "B"-type statements (E-Prime) recast these sentences into a form
> isomorphic to modern science by first abolishing the "is" of Aristotelian
> essence and then reformulating each observation in terms of signals received and
> interpreted by a body (or instrument) moving in space-time.
>

This states that there are two parts to this form of E-Prime:
1) recasting the sentences into a form isomorphic to modern science by
first abolishing the "is" of Aristotelian essence and then
2) reformulating each observation in terms of signals received and
interpreted by a body (or instrument) moving in space-time.

I was aware only of the first part, and even then, only as simple
replacement of "be" with more appropriate words, rephrasing as necessary.

The rest of 1 and all of 2 may be more truthful and contain more
information based on the senses, but they are also more cumbersome. I suppose with
practice one might become adept at not thinking and expressing oneself in such
cumbersome ways, but for the time being (!) I'll just leave out "be" when I
want to practice E-Prime.

Thanks for the link.

stevo </HTML>

Well of you are right Arnt, although I consider/believe 'consider' and
'believe' be approximate in meaning and intent - any difference is miniscule
compared to the difference between 'God is good' and 'I think God act with
rightfullness and fairness' and so on.

My own "bearing" on lojban as being a language with "naive realism" as
"focus" comes from the fact that predicate logic is its base. E-prime,
regardless if it has such goals explicitly stated or not, hinders dogmatism
by not being the obvius default as it is in english (etc) now. Dogmatism
happens to always be connected to a strong sense of being right, which is a
sort of realistic stance.

Mikael Hall

2009/9/11 Arnt Richard Johansen <arj@nvg.org>

> On Fri, Sep 11, 2009 at 01:09:22PM +0200, tijlan wrote:
> > What do you think of E-Prime?
>
> E-Prime is a variant of English that forbids constructions where the copula
> verb "to be" is obligatory. Supposedly, this changes communication and
> possibly also thought by making subjective judgements more overt.
>
> The problem is that the copula in English is a purely superficial part of
> the grammar, which is almost completely separate from the semantic layer. So
> merely reformulating sentences without copulas has no bearing on
> "judgementalness", "Aristotelian essentialism" &c. It is easy to show that
> this is the case by "translating" the following sentences from
> http://nobeliefs.com/eprime.htm in a way that conforms to the rules of
> E-Prime, yet undermines its purpose.
>
> 1A. The electron is a wave.
> We consider the electron a wave.
> 2A. The electron is a particle.
> We consider the electron a particle.
> 3A. John is lethargic and unhappy.
> John lacks energy and has a bad mood.
> 4A. John is bright and cheerful.
> John bursts with energy and cheerfulness.
> 5A. This is the knife the first man used to stab the second man.
> The first man stabbed the second man with this knife.
> 6A. The car involved in the hit-and-run accident was a blue Ford.
> The driver of a blue Ford hit a person and then drove off.
> 7A. This is a fascist idea.
> This idea bears all the hallmarks of fascism.
> 8A. Beethoven is better than Mozart.
> Beethoven's work exceeds that of Mozart in quality.
> 9A. That is a sexist movie.
> This movie reeks of sexism.
> 10A. The fetus is a person.
> A fetus becomes a person the moment the sperm enters the egg.
>
> --
> Arnt Richard Johansen http://arj.nvg.org/
> - Hvorfor snakker man engelsk på Internet?
> - Har du hørt om minste felles nevner?
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list-request@lojban.org
> with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if
> you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help.
>
>

--
"No, no, you're not thinking; you're just being logical." — Niels Bohr

"There are two kinds of people, those who finish what they start and so on."
— Robert Byrne