Lojban In General

On Monday 28 September 2009 16:22:54 Squark Rabinovich wrote:
> Hey eveyone.
>
> How would you translate to lojan
>
> "Even John liked the dessert."
>
> What about
>
> "John liked even the dessert."

la djan. ji'asai nelci le titydja (or whatever you call a dessert)
.i la djan. nelci le titydja ji'asai

mu'omi'e .pier.

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that makes sense... "additional + strong-emotion"

because "even john" and "even the cake" imply that there are other people/
other dishes that have already been mentioned (or assumed), and your
emphasizing this additional thing.

but what about "even" as in

'Even two people can't move it, how could just you alone?'

or

'She wasn't even awake, let alone concerned.'

Both of these phrases seem to use even to suggest some unfulfilled
prerequisite, before emphasizing that an even earlier prerequisite is
unmet. I guess what I'm asking is, what's a 'subtractive' counterpart that
you could use to emphasize the inadequacy of something (in the second half
of the above phrases)? There's probably more than one way...

la .ku'us.

On Tue, Sep 29, 2009 at 06:19, Pierre Abbat <phma@phma.optus.nu> wrote:

> On Monday 28 September 2009 16:22:54 Squark Rabinovich wrote:
> > Hey eveyone.
> >
> > How would you translate to lojan
> >
> > "Even John liked the dessert."
> >
> > What about
> >
> > "John liked even the dessert."
>
> la djan. ji'asai nelci le titydja (or whatever you call a dessert)
> .i la djan. nelci le titydja ji'asai
>
> mu'omi'e .pier.
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list-request@lojban.org
> with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if
> you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help.
>
>

--
白松 - Oren Robinson

+86-15810101944

On Mon, Sep 28, 2009 at 10:19 PM, Oren <get.oren@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> but what about "even" as in
>
> 'Even two people can't move it, how could just you alone?'

This seems to be "ji'asai" too:

"lo re ji'asai prenu na kakne lo nu muvgau .i ianai do nonkansa kakne"

"Two people" is an extreme case, in addition to the "one person" case.

"Two" could also be an extreme case coming from the other direction,
as in "even two people won't fit here, let alone three". "Even two",
or "re ji'asai" doesn't say from which way "two" is the extreme case,
that has to be worked out from the context.

> or
>
> 'She wasn't even awake, let alone concerned.'

"ko'a na cikna ji'asai .i na xanka ji'aru'e"

Of the things she was not, "being awake" is the most encompassing. (If
she was not awake, there are many other things she was therefore also
not.) Being awake would be the least encompassing thing in a positive
context, but in a negative context this is reversed.

mu'o mi'e xorxes

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In a message dated 9/28/2009 21:28:15 Eastern Daylight Time,
get.oren@gmail.com writes:

> what about "even" as in
>
> 'Even two people can't move it, how could just you alone?'
>
> or
>
> 'She wasn't even awake, let alone concerned.'
>
> Both of these phrases seem to use even to suggest some unfulfilled
> prerequisite, before emphasizing that an even earlier prerequisite is unmet. I
> guess what I'm asking is, what's a 'subtractive' counterpart that you could
> use to emphasize the inadequacy of something (in the second half of the
> above phrases)? There's probably more than one way...
>
> la .ku'us.
>

How would you paraphrase it in English without using "even"?

mu'o mi'e stevon

@morphimeAddict: I can't seem to rephrase it (with brevity) with the same
emotion, without an "even."

@all:

Let me make sure I'm understanding this right; in the following sentence,

"ko'a na cikna ji'asai .i na xanka ji'aru'e"

"ji'asai" marks the preceding "na cikna" as additional and emphasized, and
"ji'aru'e" marks "na xanka" as additional, and de-emphasized?

I'm confused why we're still "adding" the second half (to de-emphasize it, I
suppose) ...is there a way to use "ji'anai" or avoid using "ji'a" entirely?

ki'e ki'e ki'e

On Tue, Sep 29, 2009 at 11:07, <MorphemeAddict@wmconnect.com> wrote:

> In a message dated 9/28/2009 21:28:15 Eastern Daylight Time,
> get.oren@gmail.com writes:
>
>
> what about "even" as in
>
> 'Even two people can't move it, how could just you alone?'
>
> or
>
> 'She wasn't even awake, let alone concerned.'
>
> Both of these phrases seem to use even to suggest some unfulfilled
> prerequisite, before emphasizing that an even earlier prerequisite is
> unmet. I guess what I'm asking is, what's a 'subtractive' counterpart that
> you could use to emphasize the inadequacy of something (in the second half
> of the above phrases)? There's probably more than one way...
>
> la .ku'us.
>
>
>
> How would you paraphrase it in English without using "even"?
>
> mu'o mi'e stevon

--
白松 - Oren Robinson

+86-15810101944

Sent from Beijing, 11, China

In a message dated 9/28/2009 23:58:18 Eastern Daylight Time,
get.oren@gmail.com writes:

> 'Even two people can't move it, how could just you alone?'
> or
> 'She wasn't even awake, let alone concerned.'
>

Here are my attempts at paraphrasing these two utterances.
1) Since two people aren't enough to move it, (surprise!) how could fewer
people (or one person) do it?

Or generalizing: Even X can't Y, so how could less-than-X Y? (or in cases
of opposite extreme: ... how could more-than-X Y?)
Since X is insufficient for Y to be true, it's surprising and doubtful that
less than X would be sufficient for Y to be true.

2) (#2 also contains the idiom "let alone", which should be dealt with
separately.)
She was not awake, but she would have to be awake in order for her to be
concerned.

A necessary condition of being concerned is being awake. This necessary
condition is not met so there can be no question of being concerned.
Y requires X. X is not true, so Y is not true.

Comments?

mu'o mi'e stevon

Standard logic crap from fifty years ago now: John liked it.  Everyone else liked it.  It is sueprising that John liked it (John does not usually like things of this sort).  

From: "MorphemeAddict@wmconnect.com" <MorphemeAddict@wmconnect.com>
To: lojban-list@lojban.org
Sent: Tuesday, September 29, 2009 6:02:14 AM
Subject: lojban Re: Translating "even"

In a message dated 9/28/2009 23:58:18 Eastern Daylight Time, get.oren@gmail.com writes:

'Even two people can't move it, how could just you alone?'
>or
>'She wasn't even awake, let alone concerned.'
>

Here are my attempts at paraphrasing these two utterances.
1) Since two people aren't enough to move it, (surprise!) how could fewer people (or one person) do it?

Or generalizing: Even X can't Y, so how could less-than-X Y? (or in cases of opposite extreme: ... how could more-than-X Y?)
Since X is insufficient for Y to be true, it's surprising and doubtful that less than X would be sufficient for Y to be true.

2) (#2 also contains the idiom "let alone", which should be dealt with separately.)
She was not awake, but she would have to be awake in order for her to be concerned.

A necessary condition of being concerned is being awake.  This necessary condition is not met so there can be no question of being concerned.
Y requires X. X is not true, so Y is not true.

Comments?

mu'o mi'e stevon

On Tue, Sep 29, 2009 at 12:53 AM, Oren <get.oren@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Let me make sure I'm understanding this right; in the following sentence,
>
> "ko'a na cikna ji'asai .i na xanka ji'aru'e"
>
> "ji'asai" marks the preceding "na cikna" as additional and emphasized,

Just "cikna".

> and
> "ji'aru'e" marks "na xanka" as additional, and de-emphasized?

Just "xanka".

This is a list of things she isn't:

- cikna
- xanka
- ...

The extreme case is "cikna": given that she isn't "cikna", you can
pretty much figure out that she isn't "xanka" either.

> I'm confused why we're still "adding" the second half (to de-emphasize it, I
> suppose) ...is there a way to use "ji'anai" or avoid using "ji'a" entirely?

I was mainly concerned with the "even" part. "She wasn't even awake".
That presupposes there are other things she wasn't, and indicates that
"awake" is the extreme case. The "let alone concerned" is a
clarification of what other things I'm thinking about, so it is
something else I'm adding to the list of things she wasn't, but it's a
less extreme case than "cikna", because it's already covered by that.

mu'o mi'e xorxes

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On Tue, Sep 29, 2009 at 4:41 AM, John E Clifford <kali9putra@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Standard logic crap from fifty years ago now: John liked it.  Everyone else
> liked it.  It is sueprising that John liked it (John does not usually like
> things of this sort).

"Surprise" is often invoked when dealing with "even", but it is easily
defeasible. "The cake was so good that it was no surprise to anyone
that even John liked it." We can't really reexpress that by saying
that it is surprising that John liked it. Extreme cases are often the
most surprising, so "even" can indirectly indicate a surprising case
in that sense, but I don't think surprise is part of the intrinsic
meaning of "even". In the case of "She is not concerned. In fact, she
is not even awake." there need not be any surprise involved either.

mu'o mi'e xorxes

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2009/9/29 Jorge Llambías <jjllambias@gmail.com>:
> I was mainly concerned with the "even" part. "She wasn't even awake".
> That presupposes there are other things she wasn't, and indicates that
> "awake" is the extreme case.

Actually, I find "she wasn't even awake" to mean that for her to be
something (whatever it is that's revealed she was not in the previous
sentence), one of the most important prerequisites is for her to be
awake. That has nothing to do with "awake" being any kind of extreme
case, although it may tangentially imply that there are other less
important prerequisites for her to be that something, besides being
awake.

I hope I managed to word that in a sensible and understandable manner.

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On Tue, Sep 29, 2009 at 11:26 AM, Ivo Doko <ivo.doko@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Actually, I find "she wasn't even awake" to mean that for her to be
> something (whatever it is that's revealed she was not in the previous
> sentence), one of the most important prerequisites is for her to be
> awake.

Right.

> That has nothing to do with "awake" being any kind of extreme
> case, although it may tangentially imply that there are other less
> important prerequisites for her to be that something, besides being
> awake.

"one of the most important prerequisites" means an extreme
prerequisite. Being awake is an extreme in the list of prerequisites.
Other prerequisites may be less extreme.

mu'o mi'e xorxes

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In a message dated 9/29/2009 03:43:37 Eastern Daylight Time,
kali9putra@yahoo.com writes:

> Standard logic crap from fifty years ago now: John liked it. Everyone
> else liked it. It is sueprising that John liked it (John does not usually
> like things of this sort).
>
>

I suspected as much, but I haven't studied logic very much.

mu'o mi'e stevon

Go to the parenthetical reading of 'surprising' if you don't like that word. John doesn't usually like that sort of cake, say.I do think that the notion of extreme is probably involvedi.e., John is very fussy about cakes, so what is surprising here is how good the cake was that it could overcome even that fastidiousness.  The 'she is not even awake' case is is trickier: what is surprising/unusual? Certainly not that she is asleep nor that she has no opinion on the matter (given that she is asleep).  It apppears to be that she would be thought to have an opinion when she is asleep, but that is all very circuitous.  That is, here we have the inner extreme, the minimum for concern and and she does not meet that.

--- Original Message --
From: Jorge Llambías <jjllambias@gmail.com>
To: lojban-list@lojban.org
Sent: Tuesday, September 29, 2009 2:05:40 PM
Subject: lojban Re: Translating "even"

On Tue, Sep 29, 2009 at 4:41 AM, John E Clifford <kali9putra@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Standard logic crap from fifty years ago now: John liked it.  Everyone else
> liked it.  It is sueprising that John liked it (John does not usually like
> things of this sort).

"Surprise" is often invoked when dealing with "even", but it is easily
defeasible. "The cake was so good that it was no surprise to anyone
that even John liked it." We can't really reexpress that by saying
that it is surprising that John liked it. Extreme cases are often the
most surprising, so "even" can indirectly indicate a surprising case
in that sense, but I don't think surprise is part of the intrinsic
meaning of "even". In the case of "She is not concerned. In fact, she
is not even awake." there need not be any surprise involved either.

mu'o mi'e xorxes

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2009/9/29 Jorge Llambías <jjllambias@gmail.com>:
> "one of the most important prerequisites" means an extreme
> prerequisite.

"One of the most important prerequisites" means exactly that - *one
of* the most important prerequisites. An extreme prerequisite is *the*
most important prerequisite. If "one of the most important" equals
"extreme" that means that there are multiple extremes in one
direction, which is not the case.

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On Tue, Sep 29, 2009 at 5:06 PM, Ivo Doko <ivo.doko@gmail.com> wrote:

> "One of the most important prerequisites" means exactly that - *one
> of* the most important prerequisites. An extreme prerequisite is *the*
> most important prerequisite. If "one of the most important" equals
> "extreme" that means that there are multiple extremes in one
> direction, which is not the case.

"Even" only indicates an extreme case, not necessarily the most
extreme of all. You can say "Even John likes this cake. Why, it's so
good, even Jane likes it." This requires John to be an extreme case,
but Jane to be an even more extreme case.

Similarly: "She was not concerned. She was not even awake. As a matter
of fact, she was not even alive." So it is usually possible to add
even more extreme cases.

mu'o mi'e xorxes

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2009/9/29 Jorge Llambías <jjllambias@gmail.com>:
> "Even" only indicates an extreme case, not necessarily the most
> extreme of all. You can say "Even John likes this cake. Why, it's so
> good, even Jane likes it." This requires John to be an extreme case,
> but Jane to be an even more extreme case.
>
> Similarly: "She was not concerned. She was not even awake. As a matter
> of fact, she was not even alive." So it is usually possible to add
> even more extreme cases.

How can there be extreme and "more" extreme? It's either extreme or not extreme.

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I guess technically "extreme" means "the most that is possible" so
technically you can't have varying degrees of "extreme"ness. But in day to
day english people say things like "extreme cold". Does that mean that it's
the coldest that it is physically possible to get? No, just that it's
really really freaking cold.

On Tue, Sep 29, 2009 at 4:51 PM, Ivo Doko <ivo.doko@gmail.com> wrote:

> 2009/9/29 Jorge Llambías <jjllambias@gmail.com>:
> > "Even" only indicates an extreme case, not necessarily the most
> > extreme of all. You can say "Even John likes this cake. Why, it's so
> > good, even Jane likes it." This requires John to be an extreme case,
> > but Jane to be an even more extreme case.
> >
> > Similarly: "She was not concerned. She was not even awake. As a matter
> > of fact, she was not even alive." So it is usually possible to add
> > even more extreme cases.
>
>
> How can there be extreme and "more" extreme? It's either extreme or not
> extreme.
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list-request@lojban.org
> with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if
> you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help.
>
>

On Tue, Sep 29, 2009 at 5:51 PM, Ivo Doko <ivo.doko@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> How can there be extreme and "more" extreme? It's either extreme or not extreme.

"Extreme" can have an absolute or a relative sense. See for example:
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/extreme
senses 2, 4, 6. "utmost or exceedingly great".

In any case, we don't need to quibble about the definition of
"extreme". The point is that "even X" requires X to be an outlier, but
it usually also allows another "even Y" where Y is even more of an
outlier than X.

mu'o mi'e xorxes

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2009/9/29 Jorge Llambías <jjllambias@gmail.com>:
> In any case, we don't need to quibble about the definition of
> "extreme". The point is that "even X" requires X to be an outlier, but
> it usually also allows another "even Y" where Y is even more of an
> outlier than X.

Outlier is a word I approve of.

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In a message dated 9/29/2009 16:52:47 Eastern Daylight Time,
ivo.doko@gmail.com writes:

> How can there be extreme and "more" extreme? It's either extreme or not
> extreme.
>

"Extreme" doesn't imply 'maximum'. If you surpass an extreme, you have a
new level of extreme that is more than the surpassed level, which is still
extreme.

mu'o mi'e stevon

In a message dated 9/29/2009 17:06:34 Eastern Daylight Time,
lukeabergen@gmail.com writes:

> I guess technically "extreme" means "the most that is possible" so
> technically you can't have varying degrees of "extreme"ness. But in day to day
> english people say things like "extreme cold". Does that mean that it's the
> coldest that it is physically possible to get? No, just that it's really
> really freaking cold.
>

Saying "technically" versus "day to day" is another way of referring to
different contexts. The word means different things in different contexts, and
the two shouldn't be confused or conflated.

mu'o mi'e stevon

On Tuesday 29 September 2009 16:19:53 Jorge Llambías wrote:
> Similarly: "She was not concerned. She was not even awake. As a matter
> of fact, she was not even alive." So it is usually possible to add
> even more extreme cases.

In that case, we could say "ko'a na xanka .i ko'a na cikna ji'asai .i ko'a na
jmive ji'acai".

Pierre

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