Lojban In General

On Tue, Jan 12, 2010 at 5:32 PM, Luke Bergen <lukeabergen@gmail.com> wrote:
> I looked around in the CLL but couldn't find an answer.  I remember at one
> point reading/hearing that in {da broda brode de di} the form is that {da}
> fills the x1 place of broda and {de} and {di} fill the x2 and x3 places
> respectively of {brode}.  Am I right so far in this?

No, you are probably thinking of "da broda co brode de di".

In "da broda brode de di", "da" fills the x1 of brode.

mu'o mi'e xorxes

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Really? I could swear that I read at one point that for the sake of making
life easier {da broda brode de di} put da into broda and de/di into brode.
Maybe I am thinking of {broda co brode}. How does that work exactly? I'll
have to just read through the CLL again some time.

2010/1/12 Jorge Llambías <jjllambias@gmail.com>

> On Tue, Jan 12, 2010 at 5:32 PM, Luke Bergen <lukeabergen@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > I looked around in the CLL but couldn't find an answer. I remember at
> one
> > point reading/hearing that in {da broda brode de di} the form is that
> {da}
> > fills the x1 place of broda and {de} and {di} fill the x2 and x3 places
> > respectively of {brode}. Am I right so far in this?
>
> No, you are probably thinking of "da broda co brode de di".
>
> In "da broda brode de di", "da" fills the x1 of brode.
>
> mu'o mi'e xorxes
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list-request@lojban.org
> with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if
> you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help.
>
>

On Tue, Jan 12, 2010 at 6:21 PM, Luke Bergen <lukeabergen@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>  Maybe I am thinking of {broda co brode}.  How does that work exactly?  I'll
> have to just read through the CLL again some time.

See: http://jbotcan.org/docs/cll/c5/s8.html

>>However, the existence of inversion in a selbri has a very special effect on any sumti which follow that selbri. Instead of being interpreted as filling places of the selbri, they actually fill the places (starting with x2) of the seltau.

mu'o mi'e xorxes

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On Tuesday 12 January 2010 17:05:07 Jorge Llambías wrote:
> On Tue, Jan 12, 2010 at 6:21 PM, Luke Bergen <lukeabergen@gmail.com> wrote:
> >  Maybe I am thinking of {broda co brode}.  How does that work exactly?
> >  I'll have to just read through the CLL again some time.
>
> See: http://jbotcan.org/docs/cll/c5/s8.html
>
> >>However, the existence of inversion in a selbri has a very special effect
> >> on any sumti which follow that selbri. Instead of being interpreted as
> >> filling places of the selbri, they actually fill the places (starting
> >> with x2) of the seltau.

So in "mi lo nu kargau le vorme lo nu darxi ri troci co klama le bartu", "le
bartu" is x2 of "klama" even though there are three arguments before "troci"?

Pierre

--
lo ponse be lo mruli po'o cu ga'ezga roda lo ka dinko

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On Wed, Jan 13, 2010 at 12:13 AM, Pierre Abbat <phma@phma.optus.nu> wrote:

>
> So in "mi lo nu kargau le vorme lo nu darxi ri troci co klama le bartu", "le
> bartu" is x2 of "klama" even though there are three arguments before "troci"?

Yes, but I think you wanted: "mi lo nu kargau le vorme kei lo nu darxi
ri cu troci co klama le bartu", otherwise there aren't three arguments
before troci.

mu'o mi'e xorxes

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.uacai. So, this is what I was trying to get at with my question. I didn't
realize it only happened with {co} but thanks for asking the question that I
was thinking Pierre

I can see the usefulness of it, but it does seem bizarre that in {ko'a ko'e
brode co broda ko'i ko'o}, ko'a goes in the x1 of brode and the rest all go
into broda (starting from x2) with no visual cue to tell me that "ok, we've
stopped filling in for brode, now we're filling in places for broda".

2010/1/13 Jorge Llambías <jjllambias@gmail.com>

> On Wed, Jan 13, 2010 at 12:13 AM, Pierre Abbat <phma@phma.optus.nu> wrote:

> >
> > So in "mi lo nu kargau le vorme lo nu darxi ri troci co klama le bartu",
> "le
> > bartu" is x2 of "klama" even though there are three arguments before
> "troci"?
>
> Yes, but I think you wanted: "mi lo nu kargau le vorme kei lo nu darxi
> ri cu troci co klama le bartu", otherwise there aren't three arguments
> before troci.
>
> mu'o mi'e xorxes
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list-request@lojban.org
> with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if
> you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help.
>
>

actually, after reading a bit more closely. xorxes, how do you get that
only the first sumti goes into the selbri? I read:

Any sumti which precede a selbri with an inverted tanru fill the places of
the selbri (i.e., the places of the tertau) in the ordinary way. In Example
8.4 <http://jbotcan.org/docs/cll/c5/s8.html#e8d4>, ``mi'' fills the x1 place
of ``troci co klama, which is the x1 place of ``troci. The other places
of the selbri remain unfilled. The trailing sumti ``le zarci'' and ``le
zdani'' do not occupy selbri places, despite appearances.

to mean that {ko'a ko'e broda brode ko'i} to mean that ko'a AND ko'e BOTH go
into broda and ko'i goes into x2 of brode.

On Wed, Jan 13, 2010 at 9:20 AM, Luke Bergen <lukeabergen@gmail.com> wrote:

> .uacai. So, this is what I was trying to get at with my question. I
> didn't realize it only happened with {co} but thanks for asking the question
> that I was thinking Pierre
>
> I can see the usefulness of it, but it does seem bizarre that in {ko'a ko'e
> brode co broda ko'i ko'o}, ko'a goes in the x1 of brode and the rest all go
> into broda (starting from x2) with no visual cue to tell me that "ok, we've
> stopped filling in for brode, now we're filling in places for broda".
>
> 2010/1/13 Jorge Llambías <jjllambias@gmail.com>
>

> On Wed, Jan 13, 2010 at 12:13 AM, Pierre Abbat <phma@phma.optus.nu> wrote:

>> >
>> > So in "mi lo nu kargau le vorme lo nu darxi ri troci co klama le bartu",
>> "le
>> > bartu" is x2 of "klama" even though there are three arguments before
>> "troci"?
>>
>> Yes, but I think you wanted: "mi lo nu kargau le vorme kei lo nu darxi
>> ri cu troci co klama le bartu", otherwise there aren't three arguments
>> before troci.
>>
>> mu'o mi'e xorxes
>>
>>
>> To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to
>> lojban-list-request@lojban.org
>> with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if
>> you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help.
>>
>>
>

On Wednesday 13 January 2010 09:20:58 Luke Bergen wrote:
> .uacai. So, this is what I was trying to get at with my question. I
> didn't realize it only happened with {co} but thanks for asking the
> question that I was thinking Pierre
>
> I can see the usefulness of it, but it does seem bizarre that in {ko'a ko'e
> brode co broda ko'i ko'o}, ko'a goes in the x1 of brode and the rest all go
> into broda (starting from x2) with no visual cue to tell me that "ok, we've
> stopped filling in for brode, now we're filling in places for broda".

ko'a and ko'e are x1 and x2 of brode; ko'i and ko'o are x2 and x3 of broda.

In my sentence, "mi", "lo nu kargau le vorme kei", and "lo nu darxi ri" are
x1-x3 of "troci", and "le bartu" is x2 of "klama". x1 of "klama" is unfilled.
I could be trying to open the door so that someone else could go out.

Pierre

--
When a barnacle settles down, its brain disintegrates.
Já não percebe nada, já não percebe nada.

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On Wed, Jan 13, 2010 at 9:31 AM, Luke Bergen <lukeabergen@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> actually, after reading a bit more closely. xorxes, how do you get that
only the first sumti goes into the selbri? I read:

> Any sumti which precede a selbri with an inverted tanru fill the places of
> the selbri (i.e., the places of the tertau) in the ordinary way. In Example
> 8.4, ``mi fills the x1 place of ``troci co klama, which is the x1 place
> of ``troci''. The other places of the selbri remain unfilled. The trailing
> sumti ``le zarci and ``le zdani do not occupy selbri places, despite
> appearances.
>
> to mean that {ko'a ko'e broda brode ko'i} to mean that ko'a AND ko'e BOTH
go into broda and ko'i goes into x2 of brode.

Notice what the example quoted said, that example 8.4 ("mi troci co klama
le zarci le zdani")
is the same as example 8.3:

8.3) mi klama be le zarci bei le zdani be'o
> troci
> I am-a-(goer to the market from the house)
> type-of trier.
> I try to go to the market from the house.
>

In other words, the le zarci and le zdani are bound to the klama as if by
be and bei, despite those cmavo not appearing. They are not considered to
be filling places in the bridi, whose relationship is the tanru "troci co
klama" (which I feel is counterintuitive, btw). Remember also that a tanru
is simply the modified version of the tertau. In other words, a cmalu gerku
is a gerku. Period. It just happens to be a small one So whether you put
arguments before or after "cmalu gerku" they are the places of gerku, not of
cmalu (unless they are lined to cmalu explicitly with internal
be/bei/be'o). Similarly, this is exactly the same as a "gerku co cmalu".
This is a type of gerku, not smalu. The only difference is that arguments
AFTER are considered to be be/bei'd to the "cmalu".

--gejyspa

Right. I get it. Thanks for your help everyone.

On Wed, Jan 13, 2010 at 11:46 AM, Michael Turniansky
<mturniansky@gmail.com>wrote:

>
>
> On Wed, Jan 13, 2010 at 9:31 AM, Luke Bergen <lukeabergen@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >
> > actually, after reading a bit more closely. xorxes, how do you get that
> only the first sumti goes into the selbri? I read:
>
>> Any sumti which precede a selbri with an inverted tanru fill the places
>> of the selbri (i.e., the places of the tertau) in the ordinary way.
>> In Example 8.4, ``mi fills the x1 place of ``troci co klama, which is
>> the x1 place of ``troci''. The other places of the selbri remain unfilled.
>> The trailing sumti ``le zarci and ``le zdani do not occupy selbri
>> places, despite appearances.
>>
> > to mean that {ko'a ko'e broda brode ko'i} to mean that ko'a AND ko'e BOTH
> go into broda and ko'i goes into x2 of brode.
>
> Notice what the example quoted said, that example 8.4 ("mi troci co klama
> le zarci le zdani")
> is the same as example 8.3:
>
> 8.3) mi klama be le zarci bei le zdani be'o
>> troci
>> I am-a-(goer to the market from the house)
>> type-of trier.
>> I try to go to the market from the house.
>>
>
> In other words, the le zarci and le zdani are bound to the klama as if by
> be and bei, despite those cmavo not appearing. They are not considered to
> be filling places in the bridi, whose relationship is the tanru "troci co
> klama" (which I feel is counterintuitive, btw). Remember also that a tanru
> is simply the modified version of the tertau. In other words, a cmalu gerku
> is a gerku. Period. It just happens to be a small one So whether you put
> arguments before or after "cmalu gerku" they are the places of gerku, not of
> cmalu (unless they are lined to cmalu explicitly with internal
> be/bei/be'o). Similarly, this is exactly the same as a "gerku co cmalu".
> This is a type of gerku, not smalu. The only difference is that arguments
> AFTER are considered to be be/bei'd to the "cmalu".
>
> --gejyspa
>
>